Discworld & Terry Pratchett Wiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:Book:Going Postal/Annotations

2026-04-21T02:09:19Z

Old Dickens:

WARNING: This page is 33 kilobytes long; some browsers may have problems editing pages approaching or longer than 32kb. Please consider breaking the page into smaller sections.

we may need to move new annotations onto a new page--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 09:43, 3 October 2008 (UTC)?

This warning shows up on others, too, but is anyone actually having a problem? Firefox works fine regardless and I suspect the warning is a relic of obsolete browsers. ([[Talk:Main Page]] is 41KB.) --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 21:03, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

== Temple of Offler/Sausages ==

Surprised this one wasn't mentioned, but isn't the idea that 'crocodiles love sausages' a reference to Punch and Judy?

== The" Illuminatus! "connection? ==

Original text:-

Shea and Wilson's ''Illuminatus!'' trilogy also parodies Ayn Rand with its creation of charismatic anarchist hero [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagbard_celine Hagbard Celine], a direct parody of Ragnar Danneskjold. Although Hagbard is temperamentally and politically on the side of those who throw grit into the machine belonging to the Gilts, Galts and Dannesskjolds, such as Moist von Lipwig...

Objection noted. How about use of text: "There may also be links and distant echoes to the plot and characters of Shea and Wilson's ''Illuminatus!'' trilogy, also in this context a work of satire which parodies Ayn Rand's right-wing libertarian philosophy."

--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 14:03, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

== Back to the future reference ==

When Moist goes to the University's library for the first time, the Wizard in there tells him not to say anything and straps him into a machine that's supposed to read his mind. This is strikingly similar to the scene in Back to the future(1), where Marty McFly goes to the Doc for the first time in 1955, The Doc grabs him telling him not to say anything and straps him into a machine to try and read his mind. both the Doc in the movie and the Wizard in the book, have little success in their attempt.

I cant remember the exact quote from the movie, since I don't have it right now. if anyone can provide the quote it would be great.

--[[User:Behp|Behp]] 01:56, 07 May 2010 (UTC)

== Carry On Matron ==

Well done for spotting Hattie Jacques! She really did present the Maccalariat-lite persona of the British hospital matron of legend so much better than everyone else... the nearest recent representaion is the character that Oscar-wining Irish actress Brenda Fricker[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenda_Fricker] did for so long in "Casualty" (note for non-Brits: "Casualty" is the long-running British TV version of "ER" with less glamour and glitz and more blood and guts - although "Nurse Jackie" is a recent American take on the theme that we cynical Brits can relate to a lot more, an overworked nurse in an underfunded and over-bureaucratized shabby failing hospital.)

Now we just need the following characters:

*busty saucy young nurse (Barbara Windsor)
*green and inexperienced junior doctor (Jim Dale)
*slightly fey and cultured older doctor the Matron is secretly in love with (Kenneth Williams)
* An assortment of bolshie hypochondriachal or just workshy Ankh-Morpork patients who realise that with waitress service and three named-meat meals a day, they're on a better deal than home--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 11:54, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
...and Sid James as CMOT Dibbler. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 21:52, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

== Page numbers ==
Is there a preferable system for the references page numbers? The US page numbers don't help me, as I have a UK Doubleday edition. UKDD page numbers could take preference as the "main" edition of the book, but if I went and changed them all, the people with US editions wouldn't be pleased! Unless there's a syntax for listing multiple editions... [[User:JaffaCakeLover|JaffaCakeLover]] 13:35, 11 September 2010 (CEST)

==Odds and Ends==
The "Odds and Ends" section has turned into discussions: shouldn't it be reduced to just the references, or the whole thing moved onto this talk page? [[User:JaffaCakeLover|JaffaCakeLover]] 13:37, 11 September 2010 (CEST)

==A provocative idea==
Worth acknowledging tvtropes, and copying it to here. At the end of {{GP}}, Reacher Gilt is a fugitive with an Assassins' Guild contract fee on his head. Mr Pump beings him back as a prisoner. Gilt is offered an angel but refuses. He then takes that one last step to freedom.
Havelock Vetinari is an Assassins' Guild member. It can be reasoned that he has inhumed or caused to be inhumed a man on whom there is now a big Guild fee. Therefore he can claim that fee. It is, after all, coming from some very rich men who have been inconvenienced by Gilt and can be productively spent by Vetinari on the Undertaking or on related expenses, like repairing the clacks and getting a strategically vital communications tool fully functioning. Lord Downey, who stands to get a standard 50% of that fee in Guild tax, will not object to a fellow Guild member getting the other 50%. So the Inhumation Bell rings for a contract concluded by Havelock Vetinari...

==Albert Spangler==
Is it just me, or does Albert Spangler (Moist's 'main' alias, at least in the UK editions) has strong overtones of Robert Vaughn's con-man character Albert Stroller in the BBC TV series Hustle? [[User:DigitalRaven|DigitalRaven]] 10:19, 24 May 2012 (CEST)

==Moved from main page==

This one:
<blockquote>(p249) "'There's the Lady Sibyl Free Hospital,' said Miss Dearheart. 'Is it any good?' 'Some people don't die.' 'That good, eh?'" - Lady Sibyl Vimes nee Ramkin, of course, is the wife of Commander Vimes of the Watch, the Duchess of Ankh-Morpork, and in terms of assets, the wealthiest woman in the city. Up until now she's devoted herself to caring for swamp dragons, and horse doctors in Ankh-Morpork were considered more reliable for people than people doctors.</blockquote>

I thought the hospital was run by Dr. Lawn, who appears in Nightwatch? I thought this was a reference to him, considering his help in that book. --[[User:Sanity|Sanity]] 13:32, 10 January 2006 (CET)
:1. I agree it is evident that Dr. Lawn is the man running the place.
:2. What does "freehold" mean? Sam Vimes "signed over the freehold" to Dr. Lawn.
:3. How is the hospital financed so that services remain free? It may be from the "large amount of money" that Vimes signed over to Dr. Lawn, or it may be more donations from Lady Sybil. This point is unclear as of ''Going Postal''. I don't know if there's any new illumination in ''Thud!''.
:4. This annotation can certainly be improved. Adding the involvement of Dr. Lawn, for example.
By the way I checked The Discworld Companion, the name is Sybil, "y" first, and then "i". --[[User:Vsl|Vsl]] 00:38, 11 January 2006 (CET)

"Freehold" is a British legal term for land holding. Essentially it means that the land is owned outright, and there is no need to pay rent to anyone else. As to the name of the hospital, it's not unknown for hospitals and the like to be named after important personages, which, as Duchess of Ankh-Morpork, Lady Sibyl/Sybil certainly is; she doesn't have to have personally funded the hospital, although of course she might have. --[[User:Apalmer|Apalmer]] 12:12, 25 March 2006 (CET)

The same usage of "freehold" appears in ''Men At Arms'', when Vimes points out that he ''does'' own the Assassins' Guildhouse.
:OK, so we know Dr. Lawn owns and runs the place. The starting funds were likely the payment from Vimes. Lady Sybil may or may not have continued donating. The hospital is named in her honor because she's a city dignitary and after all the land was given to Dr. Lawn for her.--[[User:Vsl|Vsl]] 17:04, 17 May 2006 (CEST)

What I really worry about is that the original writer of this annotation may have thought that the large woman (the matron) who stops Moist from taking Mr. Groat out of the hospital was actually Lady Sybil herself, i.e. Lady Sybil is personally present on the site and acting as the matron, just like she often is present at Sunshine Sanctuary working on the dragons. The annotation gave me that impression. Although the matron is large like Lady Sybil and says "hwhat" in a haughty fashion, I think it's clear that she's a career nurse, not Lady Sybil. Lady Sybil would likely dislike working on patients sticky from illnesses; they are not dragons, and they are not brave young men wounded in battles. Dr. Lawn would have been uneasy to have a duchess as an actual working staff member, and if it's Lady Sybil, Dr. Lawn would not have made the comment about throwing chocolates to distract the nurses.--[[User:Vsl|Vsl]] 17:04, 17 May 2006 (CEST)

* Plus, Sybil does have a young baby to take care of at home, as well as an unspecified number of swamp dragons. Even if she were inclined to volunteer at Dr. Lawn's clinic, as a believer in traditional wifely duties, she'd surely wait until Young Sam is a good deal older before undertaking such work outside the home.

With regard to the question of how the hospital is funded: As I understand it, free hospitals in Victorian Britain generally kept going through a combination of voluntary donations (such as the one Dr Lawn solicits from Moist), careful investment, being largely staffed with volunteers, and (I believe) a sort of financial inertia where most of the time they couldn't ''afford'' to go bankrupt. [[User:Daibhid C|Daibhid C]] 15:18, 26 October 2006 (CEST)

If we all agree, I will fix it and remove the disclaimer. By the way, aren't the annotations for pages 12 and 13 the same? --[[User:Confusion|Confusion]] ([[User talk:Confusion|talk]]) 06:14, 2 January 2014 (GMT)

Page 224 - the Smoking Gnu - I always thought the choice of gnu was more in geeky reference to Gnu Not Unix rather than the mammal given the circumstances...maybe I was reading too much into it at the time.
:Updated it and clarified that "gnu" as mammal was for ''Truckers'', likely not for ''Going Postal''. Now somebody please tell us what "Gnu Not Unix" means...--[[User:Vsl|Vsl]] 17:04, 17 May 2006 (CEST)
:Its a free source code software foundation kind of thing, which writes all kinds of wonderful source code for Unix systems ... its kind of a recursive name. "Its GNU not UNIX" says Peter, "What does GNU stand for?" says Paul, "Its GNU not UNIX!!!!!" says Peter....very geeky but true. I promise to unanonimise myself sometime.....

Note that Ridcully exclaims "Here's that damn enormous fiery eye again!"

The tell-tale ''"again"'' is interesting. The [[omniscope]] can see ''everything that can, will, has, should or might happen in all possible universes'' (p329, Doubleday). Therefore it can logically open up a window into Middle Earth: which Tolkien tells us was originally a flat Discworld, (although he is silent on the topic of elephants and turtles). Two Discworlds should resonate in harmony together, making psychic links between them more, rather than less, possible. This suggests there already has been that contact, although the wizards are understandably ignorant of the full detail. It makes an odd kind of sense: Sauron would be naturally drawn to any signs of Wizardly activity he detects through the Palantir, which was designed with six others like it to link together as a sort of "Internet". The natural tendency would be for it to link up to a related magical device or devices elsewhere in the universe. Of course, Sauron might not be aware that the Palantir has linked him to another phase of reality. Gandalf(yearning to look upon the Middle-Earth of his distant boyhood) tells us it can see through to other times and places (effectively making it an Omniscope). And it's just as well the wizards do not know the full story and have no seeming inclination to find out, or Ridcully might well want to lead the Faculty to Middle-Earth to lend a hand to a fellow wizard (Gandalf) in difficulties and fighting a one-wizard battle...

As Sauron (if it is he) has no business outside Middle Earth, the simplest of [[banishing rituals]], like a bellowed "Bugger Off!", or a raised middle finger from Ridcully, should suffice to wrest control of the Omniscope back. What Sauron may think of Discworld wizards, compared to the ones he is most familiar with, is unrecorded... --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 00:25, 28 April 2007 (CEST)

The "wizards" of Middle Earth aren't human or even mortal - they're incarnations of Mayar spirits, so Gandalf had much more in common with Sauron then with Ridcully, I'm afraid...

I feel that I must point out that Aragorn has the undoubted right to use the Palantír, because he was King, and that his statement to this effect is made to Gimli and Legolas, not Gandalf. He says, "Nay, my friends, I am the lawful master of the Stone, and I had both the right and the strength to use it, or so I judged. The right cannot be doubted. The strength was enough—barely." ''The Lord of the Rings'', Book Five, Chapter II (''The Return of the King'' page 53 in my edition).
--[[User:Edanite|Edanite]] 03:56, 26 June 2007 (CEST)

== A little flaw in the book's plot ==

When postage stamps are first invented, Moist wonders about a method of separating them from a sheet without having to go through the long-winded process of cutting them out one at a time with scissors. He remembers how Stanley secured pins to paper - by pushing them through it - and, being Stanley, this leaves a long precise line of regularly shaped holes which may be torn. He describes this to the techs at Teemer and Spools, who then build a machine to create perforations. This has apparently never been done before, and Moist gives T&S the copyright and patent for the machine. Yet much earlier in the book, he visits Dave's Pin Exchange and explicitly asks for - and buys - a roll of ''pre-perforated backing paper to display pins on''. So the technology for making perforated paper clearly already existed on the Disc? He didn't need to re-invent it! [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 21:39, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

== Pineapples and getting past them... ==

More Internet trivia: concept not yet confirmed. Apparently in the antebellum Deep South, the equivalent of giving somebody the cold shoulder was to give them a pineapple. The sacred duty of hosting guests means you can't tell them to piss off when it's got to the [[Hat]], The Vulture-Headed-God of Unwelcome Guests stage. Mediaeval lords got around this by putting their unwelcome guests on the same cold mutton ration the peasants got. In the Deep South and other parts of the USA, they put a pineapple on the bedside table - this fruit being so common you fed the slaves on it, or something. The clear hint: it's been real nice havin' y'all, but y'all better hit the road now, you hear? So Getting Past The Pineapple might have the association of heaving a deep sigh, packing your carpet-bag and getting someone to saddle up your horse.[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 21:39, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
:I don't mess with annotations much, but AgProv seems to have it bass-ackwards here. The pineapple was (and remains, especially in Charleston) a symbol of hospitality, from the days when they were rare and expensive. I recall a suggestion that if the pineapple was not at the table any more, you shouldn't be, either, but I haven't confirmed that yet. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:02, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

== Greengrocers ==

''(p56) "'Be with you in jus't one moment, s'ir, I'm ju'st—'" – Greengrocers throughout the English-speaking world (but in England in particular) are known for their persistent abuse of the apostrophe-ess combination on their handwritten signs.
''

Terry was being unjust. The Greengrocer's apostrophe has long been a source of ridicule, but the origin of the apostrophe in the first place was to show the "e" Johnson used in plural words like "Peares" had been missed out. Robert Barltrop's "The Muvver Tongue" is an excellent source for insight into Cockney and what has developed into Estuary English. [[User:WillE|WillE]] ([[User talk:WillE|talk]]) 18:49, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

==Vonallesvolkommenunverstandlichdasdaskeit==

(Doubleday p78)

From comments in https://alt.fan.pratchett.narkive.com/iGHzZIHV/r-question-for-germans-and-linguists I suggest the word is meant to mean:

"All people who come to understanding stand on the shoulders [of giants]", paraphrasing Newton's famous quote

* 'Von' - from
* 'alles' - all
* 'volk' - people [lit. 'folk']
* 'kommen' - come (to)
* 'unverstandlich' - understanding
* 'das' - on/by/the [liberties taken WRT German pronouns etc]
* 'keit' - grammatical change suffix
(unsigned comment by [[User: Snafu| Snafu]] 12 Jan 2021)

==Dead Man's Handle==
Just listened to a detailed history of the early Cold War and the Cuban Missile Crisis. Y'all remember "mutually assured destruction?" I do... oy. It was the idea that for the sake of defense, we have to have more and better nukes than they do, 'cause then they'll know for sure that if they attack us, we'll attack them, and so they'll be dead, too, and so they won't attack us in the first place. Both sides thought this was a good idea. (And, well, no one ever got nuked after 1945, so, maybe? I dunno.)

Anyway, apparently the Soviets had a system which, if it detected that nuclear weapons had gone off in the CCCP with no Soviet response for a certain time, it assumed that the no one was alive to assure the mutual destruction. And thus it automatically fired nuclear weapons at the USA. It was called... Dead Man's Handle. Terry always had a real-life inspiration, didn't he.

I'll put this in annotations if anyone has a hard copy of Going Postal and can give me page numbers. If not, I'll eventually grab the book from the library and find the reference. [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 00:25, 21 April 2026 (UTC)
:Sounds like Doctor Strangelove...anyway, if you could suggest where in the story this appears I could look it up. I don't remember it. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:41, 21 April 2026 (UTC)
:Gorgi PB p.285 mentions a clax message sent by a dead man's hand (a call for help, not a retribution). --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:09, 21 April 2026 (UTC)

Talk:Book:Going Postal/Annotations

2026-04-21T01:41:35Z

Old Dickens: where?

Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum

2026-03-07T01:28:37Z

Old Dickens:

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<div class="quotebox">This is the page for current discussions.

Archives
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==AI content and fan project promotion==
So we have a new contributor (hello [[User:DugBride|DugBride]] if you’re reading this) who is adding AI-generated images to pages without images, and attributing them to their fan project, [https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3162903/oath-stories-discworld/page/1 a Discworld “re-skin” of the board game ''Oath'']. Which means the time has come for us to have a policy about AI-generated content. As a writer, actor, teacher, podcaster and more, every facet of my life is currently being made worse or at best more complicated by diffusion model images and large language model text, so I’m not a fan. But I recognise that’s not necessarily a majority opinion. So: what do we think? I don’t think we want AI text here at all, and at a bare minimum I want art to be clearly attributed to the model that created it. I would prefer hand-drawn fan art for character and item art, and I confess I am not a fan of some of the images uploaded so far, but again I recognise that’s a preference. But I am also not in favour of the wiki being filled up with images that promote a fan project, even if it is one I’m interested in. (This is why I have limited mention of my own podcast here, and started my own wiki for the detail I wanted to share.) What do you folks think? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 22:48, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
:I'm not a fan either, of course, and I would certainly ban AI-generated text, except how would you recognise it? Images are more difficult. What if the image were created in an old-fashioned (two years ago?) drawing program? What about photographs? I expect you know a lot more about the process than I; what if the AI is just used to smooth out an original drawing or color it, or...? Enforcement seems to be the hardest part. Other ideas, anyone? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:37, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
I’m not proposing we get too draconian about it, but having an official policy (or as close to official as we get) is enough to get us started. If folks want to ignore the rules and do it anyway, we can address that if necessary. I would just like us to be clear about whether we want images created by a diffusion model - which is to say, a generative AI like MidJourney or Dall-E which takes a text prompt and then creates an image based on analysis of training images (many used without permission) and associated descriptions. If someone makes art themselves and includes some kind of computer assistance in their process, I am not that fussed, just as I don’t mind if someone has a chat with ChatGPT to get inspiration for the fanfic they then go on to write. But the kind of thing created just by prompting an algorithm seems rather against the fandom spirit of L-Space, to me; fandom involves community, and that means if you need art for a project, you talk to other fans and find fan artists who are willing to help. An example policy might be something like: “This wiki does not permit the use of content created wholly or primarily by generative AI systems, including large language and diffusion models for text or art. All text added should be the work of the contributor; any art uploaded should be done so only with permission, and attributed to the creator.” -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 08:00, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

::Hi there thanks for the welcome and open discussion I was aware both issues you have raised were contentious which is why I messaged [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] direct before touching a page to get the go ahead to open this can of worms. I don't know how the back end of these things work so had to feel my way and have learned a fair bit in the past couple of days. Including where you talk about these things.<br> Here is where I am at...I would say if you don't like AI content then don't allow any AI content, if it is uploaded but then attributed to the model then I think you would be promoting it and will get a lot more. It has been surprisingly easy for me as a first time user to access and upload images seemingly without any gatekeeping, I am sure you already have safeguards against this but you may want to relook at those if you are hoping people will act in good faith. As for the project promotion, I agree it's a bit too much and if it's OK I will remove all references just leave the link in in my profile. Following the example set by [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]. I will of course not add any more pics but, it might be best if the current images stay while you make your decision, a picture tells a 1000 words even if those words are “we don't want these pictures” if then they are removed you may have to do it because although I can remove the page code, I have no idea how to delete uploaded files. Ironically I have been using both this reference and [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]’s podcast regularly without knowing they are connected for the last few months to get up to speed on Discworld, it took me all my life to read most of the books and so I have had to take shortcuts to work on the project references. I have a lot of respect for both sources and wouldn't want to cause any trouble. <br> If the images are unwelcome then I doubt I will have much to add as a contributor, there are a few unanswered questions when doing my research that I might be able to offer something on; Holy horns gesture? Guild Weathervanes? But you seem to have a lot covered and I have my own shed to be working in, maybe further down the road if you need some help administrating incoming imagery then I can help, although my field is Digital Imagery I am no artist and no expert in spotting deep fakes either. Finally I am thrilled you have both looked at my work in progress even if your not fans, I appreciate discerning feedback but happy to keep in my shed for now where I can choose how long Carrot has grown his hair. [[User:DugBride|DugBride]] 11:44, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
Hey DugBride - I might not be a fan of the art, or even ''Oath'', but your project is pretty amazing! And we do have a [[Fandom]] page where you could list it, at the very least. I want to thank you for engaging in this discussion in generous good faith, too. I’m not interested in having to police images really, but I think if we have a policy and find the right place to get it in front of users then that should be enough - I’m not expecting a torrent of diffusion model generated Discworld characters any time soon! — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:10, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
:I'd go along with Guybrush's policy statement, above, now, where does it go? I wouldn't like a big banner of "don'ts" on the front page, but if it's in "About", or Help:Editing nobody will read it. Help:Editing is already noted at the top of every editing page, so I guess we could say ignorance of the law is no excuse. I have to defer to Guybrush on interpretation of what's too much AI; I don't suppose it's possible to credit the source in an AI image when there might be dozens. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:44, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
::I think on image upload I had to tick a box marked "this is my own work" If it had said this is my own work and not AI generated I would have halted at that point. Apologies for the multi edits; still learning. --[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] ([[User talk:DugBride|talk]]) 12:33, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
This is a pretty good idea. What if we create a policies page (it could also include guidelines on annotations etc) and then link to that from the upload page? We can probably change the language on the upload page itself, too. And to be honest ownership is part of the problem; at the moment the ownership of generated images is murky at best, and it’s certainly unclear who owns copyright. So that does seem like the right place to put it. — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:10, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
On the subject of “how much AI is too much AI” I don’t think that’s a big problem; right now the thing we don’t want are wholly generated images - things created by diffusion models and similar tools, stuff like MidJourney or Dall-E, which create an image for you based on a text prompt. We don’t need to worry about folks using “AI” tools when making digital fan art (anything vaguely automated is being misleadingly lLabelled “AI” At the moment, even when many of those technologies already existed under other more sensible names). Perhaps we just need a clarifying clause on the “your own artwork” covering that it has to be yours, used with permission, allowed by copyright law and attributable to a person. I think it will also help to include in our art policy that as a fan project we want to showcase fan artists; you are welcome to use whatever you like to make art for yourself or or your own projects, but here we want to showcase human-drawn (etc) fan art. And as a longer term solution, perhaps I can do some call-outs in other fan spaces asking if folks have character and location fan art they’d be happy for us to use on the wiki for articles which lack images? — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:24, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
:I second all that, except that the '''Upload file''' page is for images and doesn't relate to annotations; also it's a "special page" and Osiris would have to modify it. '''Help:editing''' is already linked from editing pages. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:19, 14 December 2023 (UTC)<BR>
:[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] has removed his contributions. I'm of two minds on this; I have despised computer-generated pop music for many years now and I would prefer hand-made art or clever photographs, ''but'' we've begged for illustration for years and some of what we have isn't very good. I wish we could have more as useful as PetuliaGristle.jpg for example. Are these opposite and irreconcilable viewpoints? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:17, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
:: Missed one, just removed Detritus from the page this morning, like I said I can't do much about the images I uploaded as it won't let me delete the copy on the server. I sympathise with your issue, there are significant characters and locations without graphical representation. The AI works for me as I have to produce 250 images for a very small audience on zero budget, and I am more keen on design and mechanics than artistry. I don't think its as vital a part of your offering. Its possible that in the new year I will take [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]'s advise and reach out to some of the fan-artists to see if they want to help my project but only when I have something significant to demonstrate. I'll be happy to mention the gaps here that need filling, but it sounds like you have already been down that road. --[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] ([[User talk:DugBride|talk]]) 12:00, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
:::Hi, all, sorry I'm late to the discussion... boarding school at Hogswatch is a time sink. Anyway, y'all have said pretty much everything I would have, so all I'll do here is lend one more voice in support of Guybrush's suggestion, ''This wiki does not permit the use of content created wholly or primarily by generative AI systems, including large language and diffusion models for text or art. All text added should be the work of the contributor; any art uploaded should be done so only with permission, and attributed to the creator.'' I don't think we need to do much more in terms of advertising or enforcement, as long as we have something like this clearly stated somewhere. People don't necessarily read rules before editing. If we find someone using ChatGPT to make articles, we politely ask them to stop, and can point them to the statement if they wonder whether the polite ask has community consensus behind it. [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 01:01, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
:Have you watched ''The Holdovers''? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:30, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
::I haven't, but I just read about the movie... boarding schools are (for the most part) very, very different places in 2023 than they were in 1970. Yet, the popular perception of class privilege and influence lives on in the zeitgeist. My school doesn't allow students to remain on campus over Christmas break. The ones for whom getting home would be prohibitive - usually just a few folks from overseas - generally stay with friends. We have a faculty member who helps coordinate such stays if students need help. My family hosted several of my son's friends, who were from China and Vietnam, on occasion.

::Okay, in spring 2020 most of our international students remained on campus, and I was one of many faculty who volunteered to chaperone / entertain them. That's a very different story, with very different cultural context, to what I read about The Holdovers. <smile>

==Atom==
Clicking '''Atom''' in the sidebar bar produces the message: "This XML file does not appear to have any style information associated with it. The document tree is shown below.", followed by pages of XML gibberish. Not widely useful. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:34, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
:The Atom link is only visible in Recent Changes, your Watchlist or the history of a specific page, and generates an RSS feed (in [[wikipedia:Atom (web standard)|Atom format]]) from entries in that list using XML which is (hypothetically) useful for other apps or websites to read. The main use case I’ve seen for that recently is a Discord bot which posts recent changes to a specific text channel, but generally speaking RSS has fallen from favour for most uses except podcasting. The Atom feed option is built in to MediaWiki so we can’t remove it by [[mediawiki:Sidebar|editing the sidebar menu]], but probably there’s an option to disable it in the config file if we really want to. (FYI I don’t get the error you mentioned, though I did get a different one trying to view the feed for my Watchlist that suggests we might have an out of date extension somewhere?) — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 12:29, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

==Spamagain==
Suddenly, the SEOs are back! [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:34, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
:Might be time to turn on new account approval? I run a plugin for that on my wiki, works pretty well. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 09:08, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
::May I ask the name of the plugin you use? I wanted to switch to Turnstyle captcha but that isn't in the stable release of Mediawiki yet --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 04:02, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
:I use [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:ConfirmAccount Confirm User Accounts]. I get a little spam (I just checked and there were three junk requests) but they doesn’t slow down the wiki or result in any vandalism. It has a “Spam” response which doesn’t send an email to the requester. The main downsides are that you have to respond to each request individually, and it does throw a couple of error messages, though nothing serious. (I’m currently running MediaWiki 1.40.1 and Confirm User Accounts 224079f.) It might not be the best available! -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 07:44, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
Twenty-five at once is getting back to the bad old days! [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:01, 1 August 2024 (UTC)<BR>
Forty-three so far today, almost all from the same source. I wonder what the "human not bot" filter does. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:25, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

It's getting to be a bit much, and for extra annoyance, when I'm logged in I can't see any but the most recent deletions. If I log out, I can see that the spammers I've just deleted still show, but I can't do anything with them. Fortunately, they don't seem to be active but they still show in Recent changes. Can AI-assisted bots now defeat any captcha? , [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:27, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

The Chicago insurance agent is getting really tiresome. It can do fifteen at once all day and night, apparently automated. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:13, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

:Any word on user account approval, [[User:Osiris|Osiris]]? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:37, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

The log in procedure seems to have changed and there's a pause in vandalism. Will it last? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:41, 14 November 2024 (UTC)...no, they're back. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:23, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

== Independent Wiki Federation? ==
I think we'd be a prime candidate for membership in the [https://indiewikifederation.org/ Independent Wiki Federation], which might be a nice way to attract some additional contributors and mods. They also have a very friendly Discord full of very knowledgeable folk who specialise in MediaWiki and might be able to help us solve our spam woes. What do we reckon? Doesn't cost us anything, and it would link us to a bigger community. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 07:29, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
:I don't see why not, but I suppose [[User:Osiris|Osiris]] would have to apply. (I wouldn't even know where to find the org-application channel.) [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:24, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
:: I’m happy to do the paperwork, as it were, but only if we have consensus here that we want to do it. In any case I’m on the Discord and I’ll ask for some advice about dealing with spam account creation. It’s really gotten out of hand. — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 21:30, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
:Indeed. (No opinion from [[User:Osiris|headquarters]].) [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:41, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

==More trolls==
Well, today must be the worst ever. Over a hundred.surely. (The counter doesn't even try to keep track.) [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:40, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
:The CAPTCHA isn’t doing anything to slow them down; I’ve finally got around to asking for suggestions from the IWF (as mentioned above; it got away from me.) I’ll report when I hear anything! -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:45, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

== New art process? ==
I’ve been keeping an eye out on Reddit and other social media for Discworld fan art to help provide pictures of various characters. I recently asked one if they’d like to join - and they did! Welcome [[User:HeiryProblems|HeiryProblems]]. They don’t have wiki experience so I’ve been helping them get started, but so far the art they’ve done is for characters who have existing art. Should we update the art? Add a gallery section for characters to showcase more than one bit of fan art? Not sure what the best step there is. (I’ve helped [[User:HeiryProblems|HeiryProblems]] with a gallery of works on their user page, so you can see some there.) -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:49, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

:I don't see any upgrades in illustrations there (too cartoonish}, Add a gallery section of illustrations maybe, or a fan art section? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:59, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

== Suggestions for stopping the SEO spambots ==
I asked at the IWF, and was recommended a few different MediaWiki extensions: [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:ConfirmEdit ConfirmEdit] (which we do have installed), [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:HoneyPot HoneyPot] (which we don't) and [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:QuestyCaptcha QuestyCaptcha] (now part of ComfirmEdit), which adds questions users have to answer when submitting an edit - something I think we have or had on this Wiki, for new users at least? One of the admins and founders of IWF specifically recommended AbuseFilter (which we do have installed) and supplied the list of keywords he uses which he says works very well to stop nearly all spam on his wikis. I see I have permission to add new filters to AbuseFilter, so I'm going to give this a try. The same person also recommended that as a last ditch option we could try deactivating open account creation completely for a week or so. The bots will find themselves unable to do their thing, and eventually take us off their lists of places to try. We don't get a lot of legit new users so this ought to be okay, and if anyone asks during that period we admins should be able to manually make them an account. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 23:42, 28 January 2025 (UTC)
:Oh, almost forgot - they also recommended the [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:UserMerge UserMerge] extension as a way to delete multiple users at once, basically by merging a bunch of spambot accounts into one, then deleting the one that's left. We already have this one installed, too, so worth a look? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 23:56, 28 January 2025 (UTC)
::Yes, we used Questy for a while and we had Merge for a while, which I enjoyed. I've thought before that we could handle manual approval of new users but I don't know how difficult it might be to set up. I've been wondering if any captcha can defeat AI-enhanced bots. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:27, 29 January 2025 (UTC)
:::CAPTCHA, no - but the new filter in AbuseFilter seems to be working, it's already caught and auto-blocked one spambot from the tail end of the burst we got around the time I added the rule. The real test will be the next big influx, but I feel optimistic that it'll catch and block those accounts while also preventing them from creating those pages. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 04:59, 29 January 2025 (UTC)

== Spambot update ==
Things are mostly looking good on this front!
* The new AbuseFilter rule is working, [[Special:AbuseLog|and only seems to be blocking spambots]]. So hopefully our spambot problem is solved!
* We still have a large number of spambot accounts that flew under our radar before this. They’re pretty easy to identify via the [[Special:ActiveUsers|list of active users]], though - they’re only in the list because the account was recently created, and they either have zero edits or just a user page. Worth looking for an extension that automatically deletes unused accounts after a period of time?
:: Update on this - there’s a maintenance script for this purpose: [[mw:Manual:RemoveUnusedAccounts.php|RemoveUnusedAccounts.php]]. Might be worth running, [[User:Osiris|Osiris]]? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 22:33, 6 February 2025 (UTC)
* The AbuseFilter has a block time of 3 days which is much better than my manual block time - I naively used 3 months or <strike>1 year</strike> indefinite! This has caused a problem in that some fan artists I’ve been encouraging to share their work here have been unable to create an account because their IP is blocked.
For now, I’m going to find and unblock the IPs which haven’t seen activity for a while; new spam accounts will be blocked by AbuseFilter. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 22:24, 6 February 2025 (UTC)
:Hallelujah! Most of them seem to have stopped trying, even. Only three in the last four days. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:16, 6 February 2025 (UTC)
::Yeah, once the first attempt is blocked you don’t get thirty more the same day! So we should see only small numbers when they do crop up. You’ll see some activity from today in the block log - that’s me going through and reducing the time for a bunch of old blocks I’d put in place, so they’ll expire soon (it was a bit quicker and easier to do that than manually unblock them). Hopefully that will help with new user signups which were being blocked. The rest ought to expire in the next few months, so hopefully as they disappear we’ll see those new user registration problems stop as well. Now we just need to start cleaning up all those bot user accounts... -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 00:29, 10 February 2025 (UTC)
:Now that you mention it, I used indefinite blocking (not knowing any better) back in the last major attack, before The Move, and it didn't seem to cause a problem. Another piece I don't understand; I'd have thought there were more IP addresses than that. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:50, 10 February 2025 (UTC)
::Well, there are a huge number of possible IP addresses, but owning a unique one with direct Internet access isn’t free. Regular Internet users get allocated an IP from a pool available to their ISP, and people running SEO spam might get their Internet access through the same companies. Long block times make this more likely - an IP address once used by bots has probably since been freed up and used by a legit service. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 03:54, 10 February 2025 (UTC)
:::I've been shamefully absent from this wiki for a bit, owing to a new daily morning show I've been doing and to a bit of depression since November. I'll try to get back to putzing around, but THANK YOU to all keeping the spam away. I'm not good at technical things, so I appreciate those who are.[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 23:02, 16 February 2025 (UTC)
:One got through today, though. Spam hidden in a link with only Korean? name. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:07, 18 February 2025 (UTC)
:Again today, spam only within a link. Every two weeks isn't bad, I suppose. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:33, 4 March 2025 (UTC)
::Thanks for the tip-off; I’ll have a look out for the next one and see if there are any obvious keywords I can add. We should think about what to do about the accounts that are created but don’t post anything, too. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 11:37, 12 March 2025 (UTC)
:Well, they're back. New style: a boilerplate user page followed by a long page of nonsense with no filter triggers. I guess the point is seo. Slowing the wiki quite a lot, too. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 17:23, 14 March 2025 (UTC)
::If you can capture the text from one before you delete it, that’d be very helpful! I’m sure we can find something in there that’s worth using in an update to the filter, especially combined with the absence of Discworld-appropriate keywords. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 07:58, 16 March 2025 (UTC)
:E-mailing rather than re-publishing it, but I doubt you can pick keywords. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:11, 17 March 2025 (UTC)
::Thanks for letting me know - thought you might have been hacked there for a second! It’s true that’s a difficult one, since it seems to be text stolen from an unrelated source. But some otherwise inoccuous words can go on the list when we consider the page also has to be missing the Discworld keywords in the other part of the filter. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 04:58, 17 March 2025 (UTC)
:Do you want another one? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:57, 18 March 2025 (UTC)
::If there's another representative one with a different theme, yeah! I think the changes I made have helped? Basically I'm adding keywords which while not indicative of spam links on their own, would be weird to see appear on a page on this wiki without some more Pratchett or Discworld related words as well. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 22:23, 23 March 2025 (UTC)
:Sure, but don't overdo it, it's working pretty well. I assume the restrictions only apply to a first post? E-mail away. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:49, 24 March 2025 (UTC)
::That's right - this filter only applies to a user's first edit, so a real person who probably makes a reasonable edit to an existing page before creating a user page, or creates a reasonable user page, will be fine. (The block also only lasts three days, and we can remove it if anyone gets caught by mistake.) I've added several more, but the formatting in that last one you sent seemed to be a failed template that I think was a rich source of potential options. It should stop a few more without going overboard! -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 10:47, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

== The Perils of Automatic Blocking ==
It says that blocking KendraGatlin also blocked me, but maybe administrators get away with it? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:28, 4 April 2025 (UTC)
:Hmmm...yes, this is the problem with blocking IP addresses, though I wouldn't have thought it'd be so prevalent! It's affected a few fan artists I've tried to recruit as well. But this is a good reason to keep the block times short! -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 14:58, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

==Another exception==
Hmm. User:JuliannHooks got by the filter although the page contained "my web-page". Probably because JuliannHooks is not a new user, having been blocked last year? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:31, 14 April 2025 (UTC)
Likewise, User:RicardoBiraban. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:36, 16 April 2025 (UTC)
:The filter focuses on first edits, so yeah - if they’d already made an edit and their account still existed... This is why we need to figure out the most efficient way to delete the bot accounts. The usual way is to merge them into a generic user account, but I haven’t figured out the best way to do that for large numbers yet. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 00:50, 19 April 2025 (UTC)
We used to have Merge, too. It was very convenient. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:58, 19 April 2025 (UTC)<BR>

I wonder how these people are getting through with banned phrases and no previous record. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 19:27, 16 June 2025 (UTC)
:The current spam detector is based only on first edit, could they be making an innocuous one first and then something else? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 11:10, 18 June 2025 (UTC)
That was the loophole for some, but the latest batch shows no previous Contributions. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:15, 18 June 2025 (UTC

==Slowdown?==
It's very time-consuming killing spammers with the wiki as slow as it is. I wonder what happened there. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:13, 24 September 2025 (UTC)<BR>
Service seems to back to full speed today. Much nicer. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:56, 28 September 2025 (UTC)<BR>
But then it's back to dead slow! ¿Que pasa? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:42, 28 September 2025 (UTC)<br/>
I've experienced some very slow response times, including some 502 errors, over the last ten hours or so, in case this datapoint is helpful? — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:46, 28 November 2025 (UTC)

== AbuseFilter update ==
Hi all - I’ve just added a few terms to the anti-spam rule in the AbuseFilter, as another wiki I work on has recently been hit and it has a lot more “fake guide” content than the keywords currently in the list. The postive words should prevent this from being a problem. I wonder if it’s also worth updating to the latest version of MediaWiki - I think the newest one has made some improvements to the AbuseFilter. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 22:05, 7 November 2025 (UTC)

== Another tool to get rid of the spam - SmiteSpam ==
I’ve just tried the [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:SmiteSpam SmiteSpam extension] on another wiki and it’s pretty great - it handled a few thousand spambot accounts and pages very quickly (compared to doing them manually). It would speed up the deletion of spambot accounts here, at least ones that manage to create a page, anyway. (I’m not sure if it detects accounts that don’t do anything.) The false-positive count was very low, and it shows you a list of suspect users and the pages they created for you to check before you get it to action anything. Worth a go? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 06:10, 10 November 2025 (UTC)
:I know nothing and Osiris says nothing. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:29, 16 November 2025 (UTC)
::Well, in case Osiris does pop up, I’d also recommend activating the TitleBlacklist extension which comes with Mediawiki, and maybe also installing the StopForumSpam extension. These will help stop the accounts being created. It might be a good idea to run the RemoveUnusedAccounts script, though that will only remove the accounts which never created a spam page. These steps have really helped the other wiki which was getting absolutely hammered with spam accounts and pages. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 01:05, 21 November 2025 (UTC)

==Slow?==
I'm working with a couple of screwn-up computers here. Does anyone else find the wiki r e a l l y s l o o o w? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:24, 2 December 2025 (UTC)
:Oh yeah, it’s been unreachable or unusable for me for the last few days, but seems much better now. Everything okay? — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 14:44, 3 December 2025 (UTC)
Hmm. Yes, it seems normal, suddenly, at least after start-up. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 17:19, 3 December 2025 (UTC)<BR>
But back to dead slow now: 2 minutes for a new page, is it the weather?. You'd think this would deter spammers, but apparently not.[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:07, 26 January 2026 (UTC) <BR>
Oh boy! Express service has been restored. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:25, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

== Time for a new featured article and trivia? ==
Might be nice to change those things up. Anyone have a favourite, relatively complete, well-written article we could put as the new featured one? Or ideas for new bits of trivia to add? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 07:27, 12 February 2026 (UTC):
:Surely past time. Might well be changed weekly. Suggestions: The gods, The Chalk. Harry King, Seamstresses' Guild, Cabinet of Curiosity. (Timed out by extremely slow site on the first try.)<BR>
:But should we keep the request for editing (since no one ever did), or just present it as a good example? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:54, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

== ==
The wiki is running smoothly for a third day! Crossed fingers emoji not available. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:28, 7 March 2026 (UTC)

Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum

2026-02-15T04:54:20Z

Old Dickens:

Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum

2026-02-13T03:41:32Z

Old Dickens: /* Time for a new featured article and trivia? */

Talk:The Great Bazonko

2026-02-11T02:36:48Z

Old Dickens:

I think proposed magical particle here should rather be called a ''Bozon''. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 16:25, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

A reference to the particle type that isn't fermions? --Confusion 05:25, 23 October 2011 (CEST)

Eighteen years later, and I see the reference to a Bozon. Holy crap, this physicist laughed. Amazing.[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 00:14, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
:Brain cramps strike us all. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:36, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

Talk:Book:The Folklore of Discworld

2026-02-09T22:34:56Z

Old Dickens: /* Cover gallery */

'''Now On Sale''' in Britain; not in N. America until the end of October. Worse, it's ₤10.19 there and ₤12.40 in Canada! Usually I find the US cheapest, Canada more, but the UK even worse. Now we're getting screwed from both sides. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 21:13, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh, bad luck.. Are the prices you quote in US or Canadian $ reconverted to £? I ask because the cover price at Borders in Stockport was £17.99, with a footnote in smaller letters to say in Canada the RRP is $36.95. Although I did get a money-off deal that knocked what I paid down to £14.99. My copy of ''Nation'' was £16.99 on the cover, but the same discount got it for £13.99. (The advantage of a late-August birthday is that you get book tokens, which may be saved up for an occassion like this happening not long afterwards)--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 22:32, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

:Those prices were listed by Amazon.ca and Amazon.co.uk - --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 17:13, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Thinking about it, what if we ask for a moratorium on anyone making Wiki entries on "Nation" or "Folklore" until the end of October, to give everyone who's interested a chance to buy and read the book? Feels a bit unfair (otherwise - and for the next six or seven weeks or so, people in your position are being bombarded with spoilers for a book they haven't read yet, with every tempatation to read them.... thinking about it, if the circumstances were reversed I'd be frustrated as Hell!

(Just for the record: have made three entries, including two about the book itself, solely relating to "Folklore" but none as yet to "Nation")--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 09:42, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

== Cover gallery ==
The site is too slow for editing just now, but the the first cover in the gallery is definitely my Doubleday HB 2008, which matches the infobox description. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:59, 9 February 2026 (UTC)
:Oh - thanks for the info! Everything I could find said that the revised {{UA}} version was only for the Corgi paperback. (And the audiobook, as I discovered but didn’t add because the site is too slow to respond, as you say.) I’ll revise. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 10:42, 9 February 2026 (UTC)<BR>
My mistake. The hardcover is in the infobox; first in the gallery was put up by Jagra and it's different. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:34, 9 February 2026 (UTC)

Talk:Book:The Folklore of Discworld

2026-02-09T03:59:45Z

Old Dickens: caption

'''Now On Sale''' in Britain; not in N. America until the end of October. Worse, it's ₤10.19 there and ₤12.40 in Canada! Usually I find the US cheapest, Canada more, but the UK even worse. Now we're getting screwed from both sides. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 21:13, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh, bad luck.. Are the prices you quote in US or Canadian $ reconverted to £? I ask because the cover price at Borders in Stockport was £17.99, with a footnote in smaller letters to say in Canada the RRP is $36.95. Although I did get a money-off deal that knocked what I paid down to £14.99. My copy of ''Nation'' was £16.99 on the cover, but the same discount got it for £13.99. (The advantage of a late-August birthday is that you get book tokens, which may be saved up for an occassion like this happening not long afterwards)--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 22:32, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

:Those prices were listed by Amazon.ca and Amazon.co.uk - --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 17:13, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Thinking about it, what if we ask for a moratorium on anyone making Wiki entries on "Nation" or "Folklore" until the end of October, to give everyone who's interested a chance to buy and read the book? Feels a bit unfair (otherwise - and for the next six or seven weeks or so, people in your position are being bombarded with spoilers for a book they haven't read yet, with every tempatation to read them.... thinking about it, if the circumstances were reversed I'd be frustrated as Hell!

(Just for the record: have made three entries, including two about the book itself, solely relating to "Folklore" but none as yet to "Nation")--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 09:42, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

== ==
The site is too slow for editing just now, but the the first cover in the gallery is definitely my Doubleday HB 2008, which matches the infobox description. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:59, 9 February 2026 (UTC)

Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum

2026-01-30T23:25:39Z

Old Dickens: back up to speed

Discworld Stuff

2026-01-30T23:22:51Z

Old Dickens: don't believe there is a surreptitious albatross; restore if you know one

This place should include any interesting facts from the books by Terry Pratchett which do not fit into the categories [[List of Pratchett characters|Characters]] and [[List of Discworld locations|Locations]].

The [[Discworld (world)|Discworld]], or at least [[Ankh-Morpork]], the city which considers their opinion the most important, has recently left behind the ''[[Discworld calendar|Century of the Fruitbat]]'' (see ''[[Book:The Truth|The Truth]]''), and moved into the ''[[Discworld calendar|Century of the Anchovy]]'' (see ''[[Book:Going Postal|Going Postal]]'').

{{listdev}}

==Flora, Fauna, and Peoples==

See also [[:Category:Discworld Flora & Fauna]] and [[:Category:Discworld humanoid species]] for a more complete list.

*[[Accelerating Bamboo]]
* [[Ambiguous Puzuma]]
* [[.303 Bookworm]]
* [[Counting pines]]
* [[Critters]]
* [[Curious squid]]
* Dragons
** [[Moon dragon]] (''Draco lunaris'')
** [[Noble dragon]] (''Draco nobilis'')
** [[Swamp dragon]] (''Draco vulgaris'')
* [[Drop bear]]
* [[Hermit Elephant]]
* [[Ice Eagle]]
* [[Jenny Greenteeth]]
* [[Lappet-faced Worrier]]
* [[Malus equilibria]]
* [[Phoenix]]
* [[Pointless albatross]]
* [[Quantum weather butterflies]]
* [[Rats]]
* [[Republican Bees]]
* [[Rogers the Bulls]]
* [[Salamander]]
* [[Sapient pearwood]]
* [[Shadowing Lemma]]
* [[Tharga]]
* [[Überwaldean land eels]]
* [[Uncommon sock eater]]
* [[Unicorn]]
* [[Wahoonie]]
* [[:Category:Discworld humanoid species|Humanoid species]]
** [[Banshees]]
** [[Bogeymen]]
** [[Dwarfs]]
** [[Elves]]
** [[Furies]]
** [[Gargoyles]]
** [[Birthday, Frog-like humanoid thing with a]]
** [[Gnolls]]
** [[Gnomes]]
** [[Goblins]]
** [[Golems]]
** [[Humans]]
** [[Imps]]
** [[Nac Mac Feegle]]
** [[Nobby|"Nobby" Nobbs]]
** [[Orcs]]
** [[Pictsies]]
** [[Trolls]]
** [[Vampires]]
** [[Werewolves]]
** [[Yeti]]
** [[Zombies]]

==Food and Drink==

See also [[:Category:Food and drink]] for a more complete list.

*Food
** [[Antipasta]]
** [[Banged Grains]]
** [[Blowfish]]
** [[Burnt Brown Crunchy Bits]]
** [[Cabbage]]
** [[Chicken Vol-Au-Vent]]
** [[Chocolate]]
** [[Clooty Soufflé]]
** [[Curry]]
** [[Distressed Pudding]]
** [[Dwarf Bread]]
** [[Figgins]]
** [[Knuckle Sandwich]]
** Lickun Berries
** [[Rats|Rat]]
** [[Wow-Wow Sauce]]

* Drink
** [[Amanita Liquor]]
** [[Bentinck's Very Old Peculiar Brandy]]
** [[Brose]]
** [[Ghlen Livid]]
** [[Jimkin Bearhugger's Whiskey]]
** [[Klatchian Coffee]] (which causes the drinker to be [[Knurd]])
** [[Old Overcoat]]
** [[Orakh]]
** [[Peach Corniche]]
** [[Screaming Orgasm]]
** [[Scumble]]
** [[Sea Grape Wine]]
** [[Soggy Mountain Dew]]
** [[Special Sheep Liniment]]
** [[Spring Cordial]]
** [[Stardrip]]
** [['Three Wizards' Chardonnay]]
** [[Turbot's Really Odd (real ale)]]
** [[Winkles Old Peculiar]]

==Magic==
* [[Wizard's magic]]
** [[Fresnel's Wonderful Concentrator]]
** [[Maligree's Wonderful Garden]]
** [[Numerology]]
** The [[Octavo]]
** [[Rite of AshkEnte]]
** [[Sourcerer|Sourcery]]
** [[Thaum]]
* [[Witches magic|Witches' magic]]
** [[Borrowing]]
** [[Fairy-Godmothering]]
** [[Headology]]
** [[Shamble]]
* Natural laws, sort of
** [[Anthropomorphic personification]]
** [[Genetics]]
** [[Morphogenic field]]
** [[Narrativium]]
** [[Nature of eyes]]
** [[Numerology]]
** [[Octarine]], the colour of magic

==Concepts==

See also [[:Category:Discworld concepts]] for a much bigger list of concepts from the Discworld.

* [[Rule One]]
* [[The Code]]
* A [[Million-to-one chance]]
* [[The Desert]]
* Dwarfish [[Mine sign]]
* [[Klatchian Mist]]
* [[Boffo (Concept)]]
* [[Crab Bucket]]

== Languages ==

*[[Agatean]]
*[[Brindisi]]an (mentioned in Maskerade)
*Black Oroogu (mentioned in The Colour of Magic)
*Cimeran (mentioned in The Colour of Magic)
*[[Ephebe|Epheban]]
*[[Djelibeybi|Djelibeyban]]
* [[Dwarfish phrases|Dwarfish]]
*[[Goblin]]
*[[Golems|Golem]]
*High Borogravian - national language of [[Borogravia]] (mentioned in The Colour of Magic)
*[[Klatchian]]
*[[Latatian]]
*[[Llamedos]]ian
*[[Morporkian]]
*[[Oggham]]
*[[Old Morporkian]]
*[[Trolls|Old Troll]]
*[[Quirmian]]
*Sumtri (mentioned in The Colour of Magic)
*Trob (mentioned in The Colour of Magic)
*[[Trollish phrases|Trollish]]
*[[Tsort]]ian
*Vanglemesht (mentioned in The Colour of Magic)
*[[Uberwald]]ean

==History==
* [[Mage Wars]]
*The [[Dark War]]
* [[Battle of Koom Valley]]
* [[Ankh-Morpork Civil War]]
* The [[People's Republic of Treacle Mine Road]]
* [[Glorious Revolution]] of [[Treacle Mine Road]]

==Organisations and groups==
See [[:Category:Groups]] for a more complete list.
* [[Ankh-Morpork City Watch]]
* [[Ankh-Morpork League of Temperance]]
* The [[Breccia]]
* The [[Campaign for Equal Heights]]
* The [[DeBris Gang]]
* [[Fresh Start Club]]
* The [[Ankh-Morpork Folk Dance and Song Society]]
* The [[Golem Trust]]
* The [[Guilds of Ankh-Morpork]]
** [[Guild of Accountants]]
** [[Alchemists' Guild]]
**[[Guild of Archaeologists, Antiquarians and Tomb Evacuators]]
** [[Artificers' Guild]]
** [[Assassins' Guild]]
** [[Bandits' Guild]]
** [[Beggars' Guild]]
** [[Clockmakers' Guild]]
** [[Guild of Conjurors]]
** [[Guild of C.M.O.T. Dibblers]]
** [[Fools' Guild]]
** [[Engravers' Guild]]
** [[Firefighters' Guild]]
** [[Gamblers' Guild]]
** [[Handlemen's Guild]]
** [[Guild of Historians]]
** [[Guild of Lawyers]]
** [[Guild of Merchants]]
** [[Musicians' Guild]]
** [[Ratcatchers' Guild]]
** [[Seamstresses' Guild]]
** [[Teachers' Guild]]
** [[Thieves' Guild]]
** [[Watchmen's Guild]]
* The [[History Monks]]
* The [[Lancre Morris Men]]
* The [[Peeled Nuts]]
* [[Silicon Anti-Defamation League]]
* The [[Silver Horde]]
* [[The Smoking Gnu]]
* [[Travelling Accountants]]
* [[Travelling_Librarians|Travelling Librarians]]
* [[Travelling_Teachers|Travelling Teachers]]
* [[Überwald League of Temperance]]

==Notable Businesses/Businessmen==

See also [[:Category:Ankh-Morpork Businesses]] for a more complete list.

* The [[Ankh-Morpork Times]]
* [[Burleigh & Stronginthearm]]
* [[Century of the Fruitbat]]
* [[CMOT Dibbler]]
* [[Gimlet's Hole Food Delicatessen]]
* [[Mrs. Goodbody]]
* [[Grand Trunk]]
* [[Harga's House of Ribs]]
* [[Higgs & Meakins]], chocolatiers
* [[Le Foie Heureux]]
* [[Mundane Meals]]
* The [[Opera House]]
* [[Pointer & Pickles]]
* The Royal Mail/the [[Post Office]] (see also [[Stamps]])
* [[Harry King]]
* [[Soon Shine Sun]] Shonky Shop
* [[Three Jolly Luck]] Takeaway Fish Bar

==Devices==
See also [[:Category:Devices]] and [[:Category:Things]] for a more complete list.
* [[Archchancellor's Hat]]
* [[Axle]]
* The [[Bad Penny]]
* [[Barbarian Invaders]]
* [[Barking Dog]]
* [[Bonsai Mountains]]
* [[Broomstick]]
* The [[Cabinet of Curiosity]]
* [[Clacks]]
* [[Crop rotator]]
* The [[cubes]]
* [[Death's Scythe]]
* The [[Dis-organiser]] Mark One to Mark Five "Gooseberry"
* The [[Engine for the Neutralizing of Information by the Generation of Miasmic Alphabets]]
* The [[Glass Clock]]
* The [[Glooper]]
* [[Great Bronze Spoon of Cladh, The]]
* The [[Going-Under-The-Water-Safely Device]]
* The [[Gonne]]
* [[Hex]]
* [[Iconograph]]
* The [[Kite]]
* [[Klatchian fire engine]]
* [[Kring]]
* [[Lancrastian Army Knife]]
* [[Life-timer]]
* [[Light Dams]]
* The [[Luggage]]
* [[Magic Carpet]]
* [[Mandala]]
* [[Numknuts]]
* [[Old Tom]]
* [[Omniscope]]
* [[Piecemaker]]
* The [[Potent Voyager]]
* The [[Prid of Ankh-Morpork]]
* [[Prince Haram's Tiller]]
* [[Procrastinator]]
* [[Protective]]
* [[Pyramid]]
* [[Quizzing Device]]
* [[Razor blade]]
* [[Seven League Boots]]
* [[Shamble]]
* [[Smoking Mirror of Grism]]
* [[Staff]]
* [[Stamps]]
* [[Technomantic Devices]]
* [[Thaumometer]]
* [[Tsortean Horse]]

==Games==
* [[Crap (game)]]
* [[Cripple Mister Onion]]
* [[Dead Rat Conkers]]
* [[Exclusive Possession]]
* [[Extreme Sneezing]]
* [[Hnaflbaflsniflwhifltafl]]
* [[Jikan no Muda]]
* [[Poosticks]]
* [[Shibo Yangcong-san]]
* [[Thud]]
* [[Foot-the-ball]]

==Publications==

See also [[:Category:Discworld publications]] for a more complete list.

===Books===
*''[[100 Walks in the Ramtops]]', by [[Eric Wheelbrace]]
*The ''[[Almanack de Gothic]]''
* The''[[Bonfire of the Witches]]''
* ''Cooking With Brains'', by Chef [[Aimsbury]]''(Chef dé Canine Cuisine, [[Royal Bank of Ankh-Morpork]])''
*[[Demonylogie Malyfycorum of Henchanse thee Unsatyfactory]]
*''[[Diseases of the Dragon]]''
* ''The Show Judges' Guide to Dragons'', by [[Lady Sybil Ramkin]]. ''Cavern Club Press, Ankh-Morpork. AM $20.''
*''[[Diseases of the Sheep]]''
* [[Grim Fairy Tales]]
* [[The Goode Childe's Booke of Faerie Tales]]
*''[[I spy....Demons]]'', by Professor Cuvee of [[Unseen University]]''.
*''[[Inne Juste 7 Dayes I wille make you a Barbearian Hero!]]'', by [[Cohen the Barbarian]]
*''[[The Joye of Snacks]]'', by [[Nanny Ogg|"A Lancre Witch"]]
* [[Koom Valley Codex]]
*''[[Carrot Ironfoundersson|The Laws and Ordinances of the Cities of Ankh and Morpork]]''
*''[[Liber Immanis Monstrorum]]', by Professor Cuvee of [[Unseen University]].
* [[Mr Bunnsy Has An Adventure]]
*''[[Necrotelicomnicon]]'
*The ''[[Octavo]]''
*''[[The Summoning of Dragons]]'', by [[Tubal de Malachite]] ''(specifically about [[Noble dragons]])''
*''[[Res Centum et Una Quas Magus Facere Potest]]''
*''[[True Art of Levitatione]]''
*''[[Twurp's Peerage]]''
*''[[Walking in the Koom Valley]]'', by Eric Wheelbrace
*''[[What I Did On My Holidays]]'', by [[Twoflower]]
*''[[Book:Where's My Cow?|Where's My Cow?]]''
*''[[Why Men Get Under Your Feet]] by [[Releventia Flout]]

===[[Magazines]]===
*[[Battle Call]]
*[[Beaks & Talons]]
*[[Bows & Ammo]]
*[[Popular Armour]]
*[[Unadorned Facts]]
*[[What Gallows]]?
*[[Total Pins]]
*[[Bu-Bubble]]

===Newspapers===
*The [[Ankh-Morpork Inquirer]]
*The [[Ankh-Morpork Times]]
*[[Pseudopolis Herald]]
*Sto Plains Dealer
*[[Tanty Bugle]] ''(weekly, crime reportage from throughout The [[Sto Plains]])''

[[Category:Discworld Series| ]]

Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum

2026-01-26T04:07:06Z

Old Dickens: slower

Talk:Book:The New Discworld Companion

2026-01-09T05:07:27Z

Old Dickens: fact check

Here is a little dilemna : I wrote a page for this book, but misspelled it (I previewed it many times to cerrect it, but forgot to check the name ...). It's here : [[Book:The New Dicworld Companion|The New Dicworld Companion]](thank god I didn't add a k ...). What do we do with it ? --[[User:Silaor|Silaor]] 23:05, 17 November 2005 (CET)
:Since both are just blurbs right now, I compared them and put all the stuff there is (links, the third paragraph) into the version with the correct name title. I don't know how to do it but I suppose the extra version can be deleted. I don't have the book though, so I don't know if the third paragraph had been part of the publisher's blurb, or something that Silaor wrote up. -- Vsl
::Thanks :) The 3rd paragraph is in the blurb, I copied it. For the deleting of pages, I think only an admin can do that ...--[[User:Silaor|Silaor]] 02:15, 18 November 2005 (CET)
:::I do not think that there are already links pointing to the misspelled page. But to be on the safe side I placed a redirect to the correct page. --[[User:Jogibaer|Jogibaer]] 08:56, 18 November 2005 (CET)
:::I did a search in all name spaces (main, talk, user, game...) for "Dicworld", only turned up the original misnamed article and this Book Discussion here. So, I think no links so far (as of 23:59, 18 November 2005) point to the misspelled version, and it can be safely deleted. -- Vsl
::::I deleted it. --[[User:Death|Death]] 16:07, 19 November 2005 (CET)

== Blurb accuracy re: addition of Wee Free Men? ==

I’m not sure if the current “blurb” is just the actual blurb from the book, or if the last two paragraphs are an annotation added by an editor. Someone I know with the trade paperback edition reports that edition doesn’t have anything about {{WFM}} in it. There was also a paperback format edition, so perhaps that was the one where things were added? I’m tracking down some copies of the editions I don’t have, so I’ll be able to check depending on which one I get, but if anyone has access to the paperback and can correct the blurb here that’d be great. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 01:14, 9 January 2026 (UTC)
:My pb edition ©2004 doesn't have the last two paragraphs; it does refer to {{WFM}}. We don't have the History prior to 2012 and Silaor predates me here. Does he refer to the original hard-cover? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:36, 9 January 2026 (UTC)

Talk:Book:The New Discworld Companion

2026-01-09T02:37:01Z

Old Dickens:

Here is a little dilemna : I wrote a page for this book, but misspelled it (I previewed it many times to cerrect it, but forgot to check the name ...). It's here : [[Book:The New Dicworld Companion|The New Dicworld Companion]](thank god I didn't add a k ...). What do we do with it ? --[[User:Silaor|Silaor]] 23:05, 17 November 2005 (CET)
:Since both are just blurbs right now, I compared them and put all the stuff there is (links, the third paragraph) into the version with the correct name title. I don't know how to do it but I suppose the extra version can be deleted. I don't have the book though, so I don't know if the third paragraph had been part of the publisher's blurb, or something that Silaor wrote up. -- Vsl
::Thanks :) The 3rd paragraph is in the blurb, I copied it. For the deleting of pages, I think only an admin can do that ...--[[User:Silaor|Silaor]] 02:15, 18 November 2005 (CET)
:::I do not think that there are already links pointing to the misspelled page. But to be on the safe side I placed a redirect to the correct page. --[[User:Jogibaer|Jogibaer]] 08:56, 18 November 2005 (CET)
:::I did a search in all name spaces (main, talk, user, game...) for "Dicworld", only turned up the original misnamed article and this Book Discussion here. So, I think no links so far (as of 23:59, 18 November 2005) point to the misspelled version, and it can be safely deleted. -- Vsl
::::I deleted it. --[[User:Death|Death]] 16:07, 19 November 2005 (CET)

== Blurb accuracy re: addition of Wee Free Men? ==

I’m not sure if the current “blurb” is just the actual blurb from the book, or if the last two paragraphs are an annotation added by an editor. Someone I know with the trade paperback edition reports that edition doesn’t have anything about {{WFM}} in it. There was also a paperback format edition, so perhaps that was the one where things were added? I’m tracking down some copies of the editions I don’t have, so I’ll be able to check depending on which one I get, but if anyone has access to the paperback and can correct the blurb here that’d be great. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 01:14, 9 January 2026 (UTC)
:My pb edition ©2004 doesn't have the last two paragraphs; it does refer to {{WFM}}. We don't have the History prior to 2012 and Silaor may predate me here. Does he refer to the original hard-cover? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:36, 9 January 2026 (UTC)

Book:Jingo

2026-01-08T06:05:47Z

Old Dickens: add mention

{{Book Data
|title=Jingo
|cover=[[File:Cover Jingo.jpg|240px|thumb|Cover art by Josh Kirby]]
|coauthors=
|illustrator=
|date=16th November 1997
|publisher=Gollancz
|isbn=9780575065406
|pages=288
|rrp=
|series=Watch Series
|characters=[[Ankh-Morpork City Watch|The Watch]], [[Havelock Vetinari]]
|annotations=Yes
|notes=
}}
==Blurb==
[[Discworld (world)|Discworld]] goes to war...

A weathercock has risen from the [[Circle Sea|sea]] of Discworld. Suddenly you can tell which way the wind is blowing. A [[Leshp|new land]] has surfaced, and so have [[Ankh-Morpork|old feuds]]. And as [[Klatch_(country)|two armies]] march, Commander Vimes of the [[Ankh-Morpork City Watch]] has got just a few hours to deal with a crime so big that there's no law against it. It's called "war."

He's facing unpleasant foes who are out to get him... and that's just the people on [[Ronald Rust|*his* side]]. The enemy might be worse. And his pocket Dis-organiser says he's got "Die" under "Things To Do Today". But he'd better not, because the world's cleverest inventor and its most devious politician are on their way to the battlefield with a little package that's guaranteed to stop a battle...

Discworld goes to war, with armies of sardines, warriors, fishermen, [[curious squid|squid]], and at least one very camp follower.

==Characters==
===Main Characters===
*[[71-hour Ahmed]]
*[[Angua von Überwald|Angua]]
*Prince [[Cadram]]
*[[Fred Colon]]
*[[Detritus]]
*Lt [[Hornett]]
*[[Carrot Ironfoundersson]]
*[[Cheery Littlebottom]]
*[[Nobby Nobbs]]
*[[Leonard of Quirm]]
*[[Ronald Rust|Lord Rust]]
*[[Reg Shoe]]
*[[Havelock Vetinari]]
*[[Samuel Vimes]]

===Other Characters===
*[[Greasy Arif]]
*[[Solid Jackson]]
*[[Les Jackson]]
*[[Jenkins]]
*Prince [[Khufurah]]
*[[Cumbling Michael]]
*[[Sybil Ramkin]]
*[[Lord Selachii]]
*[[Venturi|Lord Venturi]]
*[[Willikins]]

===Minor Characters===
*Mr. [[Boggis]], [[Thieves' Guild]]
*Private [[Vincent Bourke|Bourke]]
*[[Ossie Brunt]]
*Mr. [[Burleigh]], [[Armourers' Guild]]
*Mrs. [[Evadne Cake]], medium
*[[Death]]
*Constable [[Dorfl]], City Watch
*[[Downey|Lord Downey]]
*Constable [[Downspout]], City Watch
*Constable [[Flint]], City Watch
*Mr. [[Frostrip]], [[Guild of Accountants]]
*Mr. [[Goriff]], take-away shop owner
*Janil [[Goriff]], temperamental teenager
*[[Bob-Bob Hardyoyo]]
*[[Jabbar]]
*Special Constable (The) [[Librarian]], City Watch
*Constable [[Pediment]], City Watch
*[[Verity Pushpram]]
*[[Archchancellor]] [[Mustrum Ridcully]]
*Mr. [[Scoplett]], first mate
*Mr. [[Slant]], [[Guild of Lawyers]]
*[[Snowy Slopes]], killer
*Mrs. [[Spent]], landlady
*[[Stoolie]]
*Probatory Constable [[Buggy Swires]], City Watch
*Constable [[Visit-The-Infidel-With-Explanatory-Pamphlets]], City Watch
*William, aka "the Artful Nudger", gang member and reluctant Wolf Pack footballer
*Gavin, aka "Scumbag Gav", another unwilling Wolf Pack recruit
*Mr. [[Wazir]], bookshop owner

===Mentions===
*(The) [[Bursar]]
*[[Chalky]], pottery owner
*[[Done It Duncan]]
*[[Blind Hugh]]
*[[Smelly Slider]], deceased Watch informant
*[[Topless Harry]]
*[[Mr Hong|Mr. Hong]], unfortunate fish bar owner
*[[Sidney Lopsides]]
*[[Needle Ned]]
*General [[Callus Tacticus]]
*[[Stoneface Vimes]]
*Stamina Thrum, one-legged single woman living in Elm Street
*Harry Chestnuts
*[[Agony Aunts]]
*[[Denephew Boot]]

==Locations==
*[[Ankh-Morpork]]
**[[Barbican]]
**[[Blue Cat Club]] (mentioned)
**[[Bunch of Grapes]] (mentioned)
**[[Disguise and Joke Shop]] (mentioned)
**[[Money Trap Lane]]
**[[Mundane Meals]]
**[[Rats Chamber]]
**[[Sator Square]]
**[[Sheer Street]] (mentioned)
**[[Vortin|Vortin's Diamond Warehouse]]
*[[Klatch (country)|Klatch]]
**[[Al-Khali]]
**Elharib (country) (mentioned)
**[[Smale]] (mentioned)
**Tacticum
**[[Ur]] (mentioned)
*[[Leshp]]

==Things and Concepts==
*[[Army]]
*[[Blue Cat Club]]
*[[Curious squid]]
*[[Dis-Organiser]]
*[[Foot-the-ball]]
*[[Going-Under-The-Water-Safely Device]]
*[[Mary-Jane]]
*[[Prid of Ankh-Morpork]]

==Adaptations==
===[[Theatre Adaptations|Theatre]]===
Adapted by [[Stephen Briggs]] into a stage play in 2005.

==Gallery==
{|
|-
| valign="top" | [[File:J Letterbox.jpg|thumb|120px|First Edition Cover by [[Josh Kirby]]]]
| valign="top" | [[File:J Proof.jpg|thumb|120px|Book Proof]]
| valign="top" | [[File:J Black.jpg|thumb|110px|Paperback 2004]]
| valign="top" | [[File:J Tape.jpg|thumb|120px|Audio Cassette]]
| valign="top" | [[File:J CD.jpg|thumb|140px|Audio CD]]
|}
{|
|-
| valign="top" | [[File:J MS.jpg|thumb|120px|Cover by Michael Sabanosh]]
| valign="top" | [[File:J US.jpg|thumb|120px|US Cover]]
| valign="top" | [[File:J Zoom.jpg|thumb|120px|Paperback 2012]]
| valign="top" | [[File:J CL.jpg|thumb|120px|[[Discworld Collector’s Library]] Edition]]
| valign="top" | [[File:J 2023.jpg|thumb|120px|Paperback 2023]]
|}

==External Links==
[http://www.lspace.org/books/apf/jingo.html ''Jingo'' Annotations - The Annotated Pratchett File]

{{series|before=Hogfather|series=Discworld|after=The Last Continent}}
{{series|series=Watch|before=Feet of Clay|after=The Fifth Elephant}}

[[Category:Discworld Series|Jingo]]
[[Category:Watch Series|Jingo]]
[[de:Buch:Fliegende Fetzen]]

Talk:Blue Cat Club

2026-01-08T04:51:09Z

Old Dickens: sources

Frank Harris enjoyed a brief revival in the early Sixties (or would have if he'd been less dead.) By that time he wasn't nearly scandalous enough cause an uproar. William Burroughs, et al, had shot his fox: sic transit infamia. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 19:39, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

== Source? ==

Where is the Blue Cat Club mentioned? I couldn’t find it in {{MM}} or {{T!}}, which have the most prominent mentions of the [[Pink PussyCat Club]], or in {{UA}}, which has the clearest hints of gay characters in it. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 23:38, 7 January 2026 (UTC)
:I don't like to read from a screen, but I would love to have searchable e-books (not enough to pay for fifty-odd duplicates). It's mentioned in {{CAM}} and {{J}} (Corgi pb p320). [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:51, 8 January 2026 (UTC)

User talk:Guybrush

2026-01-06T06:00:57Z

Old Dickens:

Damn! That's quite a résumé. You seem busier than our [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] and getting paid for it too; it's a shame you only visit every year or so. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:07, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
:I only just noticed this! Thanks for the compliment; I’m also trying to visit more regularly! [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 04:32, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

== Just listened to your podcast ==

I very much enjoyed the Wintersmith episode on my drive across Virginia and North Carolina today. Thank you! So, whenever I reread Wintersmith, I read the opening chapter twice - once at the beginning, and once again in its actual place in the narrative, before the last chapter. I've always thought that the events in that chapter certainly did happen! I need to reread again, of course. I've listened to Hadestown (the new-ish musical) enough that I probably have a new perspective on the Roland plot. Youall have given me lots to think about. [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 05:30, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
:Sorry to butt in, but what a coincidence! Anaïs Mitchell is one of my favorite musicians (and with Jefferson Hamer, one of my favorite acts). I suppose you've heard ''Child Ballads''? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 06:02, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
::Well now I want to listen to ''Hadestown''! And thanks Moishe for the kind words; always good to hear from a listener. And yeah, that opening chapter clearly happens as far as I'm concerned; I think Garth and Liz got a bit hung up on Terry's closing remarks about it "not having happened yet". Please do send us a question for an upcoming episode; as I write this, the next one is {{NW}}! -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 00:53, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
:::Awesome. Night Watch is amazing. Sam Vimes and John Keel could tell American policepeople something about appropriate use of authority.

:::On the way home I listened to the Fifth Elephant episode. I love the Carrot B-plot - it develops not just Carrot's, but also Angua's, character substantially. To me, Gavin is the wolf version of Carrot. Angua is always caught between being a wolf and a human; now she's in a love triangle with a wolf and a human, while trying to fend off her Nazi brother. You're right that we never see inside Carrot's head, but through his actions (and through Gaspode's and Vimes's observations) we see the Machiavellian Carrot. There was a thread on the old alt.books.pratchett site entitled "Nasty Carrot?" that helped me see into how, likely, Carrot was cleverly plotting toward his endgame of being Angua's man.

:::Looks like youall have been going for a while! I won't run out of episodes anytime soon. I started Nation, and I'll finish that on an upcoming dog walk. Thanks!

:::(Oh, and Old Dickens, I'm gonna download Child Ballads. I've *not* heard it, but I will soon!) [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 02:05, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

== ==
You've been busy again! Nice to see something on the screen beside me and the trolls. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:08, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
:It’s amazing how much more free time you can muster when you’ve finished studying! Though teaching is still taking up a lot of my time. Thanks for all your troll-bashing! [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 04:09, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
You seem as busy as I was before the abuse filter. Are they getting around it already? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:38, 2 February 2025 (UTC)--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:38, 2 February 2025 (UTC)
:No, this is a batch from before it was active that hadn't been cleaned up, as far as I can tell. The only two that have cropped up afterwards have been blocked appropriately. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:54, 2 February 2025 (UTC)
:Also worth noting that the abuse filter is currently set up to trigger when a user makes their first edit; there are some spam accounts that seem to have created an account, but not made a user page (e.g. the batch of half a dozen or so from an hour before this conversation). They're usually easy to spot because of the usernames, but they're also probably going to come back to try an edit and get blocked later… -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 06:03, 2 February 2025 (UTC)<br>
Oh good. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 17:32, 2 February 2025 (UTC)

== Unseen Academicals pod ==
Guybrush, I listened to and enjoyed the Unseen Academicals podcast. You and Liz inspired me to listen to the new audiobook version, and I loved it. *Hearing* the accents did make the book hit differently. (My Fare, Lady?) Thanks! [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 23:07, 16 February 2025 (UTC)
:Thanks for listening Moishe! Do you mean the Colin Morgan audiobook, or the audio drama with David Jason? I’ve listened to a bit of the latter; they take a lot more liberties than I’d have expected, and I’m not sure I like all of their choices, but it’s fun all the same! -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 23:14, 23 February 2025 (UTC)
::I listened to the new audio book, the Colin Morgan one. See, I'm American, for my sins, and thus I hear all of Pratchett's characters with American accents. I know that's without question NOT the intent of the author, but that's how my brain works. Love the new release audio books (listening to Thud! now) where the readers make acting choices about the voice for each character. Vimes sounds like the cops on English television cop shows. Of course he does! But he didn't when I *read* the books. [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 15:44, 24 February 2025 (UTC)

==Usage rule again==
Gee! I just had a discussion with Moishe about editing people's contributions to your local English (he, of course, was "correcting" to the American spelling). "Willful" is perfectly good American English (and makes more sense to me). I've seen Brits here claiming exclusive rights to the language but we colonials don't have to. I like the policy in Help:Editing. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:03, 26 April 2025 (UTC)
:Sorry - wasn’t intentional! I don’t actually know American spellings outside of the obvious ones, and only changed it because I was editing the page anyway and my spellchecker said it was wrong. Didn’t mean anything by it! —[[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 09:17, 26 April 2025 (UTC)
The odd thing in this case is that American English wants to remove all double letters, even when it appears to change the pronunciation, but here they default to sensible. In Canada, we're educated in British and then immersed in American, so I see both and use whichever feels better. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:03, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

==re: Annotations project==
Go get `em! (Thumb up emoji)

== ==
Gods, you"re busy! [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 06:00, 6 January 2026 (UTC)

User:Old Dickens

2026-01-03T03:11:04Z

Old Dickens: /* Bridge */

==Verse==
'''W'''hat if the stories were true? What if there really were [[Vampires]] and [[Werewolves]] and [[Wizards]] and [[Witches]] who really could turn you into a toad, or make you think they had? Suppose [[Samuel Vimes|Nick]] and [[Sybil Ramkin|Nora]] {{wp|Nick_and_Nora_Charles|Charles}} were the most powerful couple in the country...

There is a story that the world is a disc borne on the backs of [[World Elephant|four elephants]] which stand on the carapace of an enormous [[Great A'Tuin|turtle]]. In one corner of the Multiverse (the one farthest from ''Reality'') this, too, is true. This is where the [[Narrative Causality|story]] creates the history and a one-in-a-million chance turns up nine times out of ten and the ocean falls into space around the [[rim]] without depleting itself. On the [[Discworld (world)|Discworld]], "what if?" must be answered, the stories lived, the myth made real.

Tales from this remote universe arrived regularly via [[Inspiration Particles|inspiration particles]] intercepting the particularly receptive and talented brain of [[Terry Pratchett|Sir Terry Pratchett, OBE]]. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to sort, file and illuminate the elements of these chronicles in this little corner of the vast library of [[L-space]]. Just don't forget your ball of string.

==Bridge==

'''С'''лава Україні!

==Chorus==
'''I''' sometimes sit and laugh giddily at the mere existence of some Pratchett characters (Carrot Ironfoundersson, say) and the reality he creates out of the absurd stereotype. This is often toward the end of the bottle of wine, but still, it suggests how he's different from other writers I have followed. There are now more than twelve hundred [[:Category:Discworld characters|Discworld characters]] described here, and that's not all.

.
.

.
.

.
.

.
.

Made a sysop for the many good contributions --[[User:Sanity|Sanity]] 01:34, 19 August 2006 (CEST)

User:Old Dickens

2025-12-31T00:11:11Z

Old Dickens: /* Bridge */

==Verse==
'''W'''hat if the stories were true? What if there really were [[Vampires]] and [[Werewolves]] and [[Wizards]] and [[Witches]] who really could turn you into a toad, or make you think they had? Suppose [[Samuel Vimes|Nick]] and [[Sybil Ramkin|Nora]] {{wp|Nick_and_Nora_Charles|Charles}} were the most powerful couple in the country...

There is a story that the world is a disc borne on the backs of [[World Elephant|four elephants]] which stand on the carapace of an enormous [[Great A'Tuin|turtle]]. In one corner of the Multiverse (the one farthest from ''Reality'') this, too, is true. This is where the [[Narrative Causality|story]] creates the history and a one-in-a-million chance turns up nine times out of ten and the ocean falls into space around the [[rim]] without depleting itself. On the [[Discworld (world)|Discworld]], "what if?" must be answered, the stories lived, the myth made real.

Tales from this remote universe arrived regularly via [[Inspiration Particles|inspiration particles]] intercepting the particularly receptive and talented brain of [[Terry Pratchett|Sir Terry Pratchett, OBE]]. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to sort, file and illuminate the elements of these chronicles in this little corner of the vast library of [[L-space]]. Just don't forget your ball of string.

==Bridge==
[[Image:Schist.jpg|360px|center]]

'''С'''лава Україні!

==Chorus==
'''I''' sometimes sit and laugh giddily at the mere existence of some Pratchett characters (Carrot Ironfoundersson, say) and the reality he creates out of the absurd stereotype. This is often toward the end of the bottle of wine, but still, it suggests how he's different from other writers I have followed. There are now more than twelve hundred [[:Category:Discworld characters|Discworld characters]] described here, and that's not all.

.
.

.
.

.
.

.
.

Made a sysop for the many good contributions --[[User:Sanity|Sanity]] 01:34, 19 August 2006 (CEST)

Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum

2025-12-03T17:19:04Z

Old Dickens:

Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum

2025-12-02T04:24:01Z

Old Dickens:

Talk:Bergholt Stuttley Johnson

2025-12-02T04:13:20Z

Old Dickens:

Whoa, I want to dissociate myself from the "Irish are stupid" remark added to my annotation - just a step too far, I think, it turns a general observation, about how people used to Imperial measures just cannot get their heads around the concept of metrification, into something hovering in the general area of racism. This line wasn't added by me, and I'd be sorry if anyone thought that. The general observation is valid and legitimate - that anti-Irish postscript isn't. --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 12:40, 29 May 2007 (CEST)

If anything, the British are even LESS capable of accepting metric units. Although I like the generally pragmatic Northern European (ie, anywhere on a seacoast that trades with Britain) concept of ''"le libre metrique",'' ie an acceptance that an Imperial pound is only just less than 500g.--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 12:41, 29 May 2007 (CEST)
:As a brit I agree, until very recently it was up to the vendor if they specified imperial or metric units. Now everything has to be sold in metric units, leaving oddities like sheets of plywood being sold as 2440x1220mm rather than the traditional 8'x4'. Groceries are just as bad, rather than resize things to a sensible metric amount like 500g or 1kg, you end up with 440g tins of food and 2.777l of milk. Couple that with a country that uses miles, yards and feet on it's road network, yet sells fuel by the litre and suddenly working out your fuel economy in MPG gets a whole new level of interesting. It gets even better in industries that deal with both the EU and the USA...... --[[User:Megahurts|Megahurts]] 09:51, 23 October 2010 (CEST)

B.S. Johnson created absurdities for Lord Snapcase. He was therefore alive up to about Vetinari's accession. One might suspect that he didn't last very long after Lord V. took charge. Leonard can be kept in the attic to produce useful devices, occasionally, but Johnson was simply dangerous.
--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 00:44, 26 March 2008 (CET)
:He was also alive during the reign of archchancellor [[Galder Weatherwax]], creating the bathroom mentioned in Hogfather. That places him around the time of {{TCOM}}. --[[User:Sanity|Sanity]] 18:00, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

==Roundworld Comparison==
The (round)world's largest pipe organ seems to be in the Sydney Opera House. This device sounds dangerously close to Johnson's last effort and should definitely not be associated with the Australian Post Office in any way. There seems to be no equivalent in Bugarup. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 14:16, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

:The organ at the Sydney operahouse and the organ at Boardwalk Hall Auditorium in N. Jersey are the two organs credited as having true 64' registers. [[User:Iron Hippo|Iron Hippo]] 02:03, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

They've both sensibly stopped at 64'/17.6 Hz. Great care would have to be taken with Johnson's 128' stop: some of the notes in the middle of that (subsonic) range could cause great consternation in the audience, not to mention the damage to the upholstery. (The New Jersey organ apparently hasn't worked for some years.) --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 16:01, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

:: Digital electronic organ-builders (you know what I mean) are experimenting with 128' register, often with humorous names like "Vox Balaena" (whale voice) or "Self Destruct". Also the Boardwalk Hall organ, mentioned above, has a 42²/3' stop which can be drawn with the 64-footer to yield a 128' "resultant bass". So Johnson doesn't quite manage to be larger than life. [[User:Captain Pedant|Captain Pedant]] 22:33, 4 October 2011 (CEST)

== First mention of BS Johnson ==

Does Bloddy Stupid appear for the first time in ''Men at arms'' as Vimes is getting married and the Librarian happily cranks the university Great organ into gear. The organ bears the initials BSJ which in reverse becomes JSB probably referring to Johann Sebastian Bach who was an actual genius when it came to organs. --[[User:Iron Hippo|Iron Hippo]] 23:32, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Probably. (Repeating yourself is a sign of senility.) --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 23:57, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

:Repeating yourself is a sign '''Error 500 internal server failure''' and "#### I got to type it in again" --[[User:Iron Hippo|Iron Hippo]] 10:01, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Not that it matters 16 years later... but I'm listening to MAA right now, and BS Johnson appears quite early in the book, I think when Carrot tries to show Angua the Colossus of Morpork. [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 01:02, 29 November 2025 (UTC)

==Rocket science==
Now, a simple physicist might have ruled 'de minimus' on AgProv's simplification of the Mars mission confusion, but a physics 'teacher' is required to correct these things. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:13, 2 December 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Book:Nation

2025-11-18T03:15:06Z

Old Dickens: not such an odd suggestion

'''''Nation''''' was picked as the first choice in children's books for Christmas in yesterday's Toronto Star. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 22:55, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Constant Readers may have noticed that I'm on a ''Nation'' kick. What boggles the mind is the apparent unpopularity of this book here or in general. Isn't this a better book, on the grand scale, than {{MM}}? Is it not the hottest prospect in the whole catalog for a movie deal? (Yes, the cigar-waver who wanted to "lose the Death angle" would say that the two-kids-on-the-desert-island has been done, but it's not the same.) Can anyone suggest what this book lacks, or has too much of, to be so neglected?

I do allow that it's a book for very bright children only; the Author's Note suggests that thinking about it may be necessary. It's probably even harder than Tiffany's darker moments. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 02:50, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

:I ,for one , really enjoyed Nation. However I've only read it three times so far, unlike ''Pyramids, Wyrd Sisters'' and ''Intresting Times'' which are well into double digits. It's simpler to write quality material on stuff you know well.
:But, as has been pointed out, '''Nation''' seems underrepresented at this L-space wiki. I'll make an effort to contribute material (all camels and all opera has been covered so I should have time). [[User:Iron Hippo|Iron Hippo]] 22:59, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
::First order of buisniess. 1: Learn to spell. B: Bring my copy of Nation to my mindnumbingly boorring shift as signalman at Almunge tomorrow. 3. Re-read it, 4:Make some sense [[User:Iron Hippo|Iron Hippo]] 21:33, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

There is a good interview with Terry Pratchett on the subject of Nation in the [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/bookclub/6250567/Terry-Pratchetts-Nation-is-our-Family-Book-Club-of-the-month.html Telegraph]. These are some quotations from it, but the whole thing is worth reading:

"As it happens, this one rather wrote itself. I began with the initial image of a boy standing on the shore, screaming at the gods, and from that point, I kept writing just to keep up with the images in my head."

"I knew there had to be a ship, I knew one passenger had to survive, and I knew that the passenger had to be a girl," says the author. "Not only do she and Mau not understand each other's language, but there is the gender barrier between them as well. They come from completely different backgrounds, completely alien cultures, with no point of reference between them, not even symbols."

"If I've learnt nothing else about writing fantasy, it is that to do it successfully you have to keep at least one foot in the real world," says the author. "To be really effective, fantasy should be no more than a micrometer from the truth."

"There has to be some kind of understanding that the world is not governed by Walt Disney," insists Pratchett. "As the aftermath of the waves recedes, and they put all their effort into rebuilding the nation, both Mau and Daphne are presented with these huge challenges. Both in their way are irrevocably lonely, and they only gradually come to understand that, on the whole, they prefer to be lonely with each other."

In a 2009 National Theatre publication, Terry Pratchett said, "My inspiration for the book came about six or seven years ago, before the Asian tsunami actually happened. It then went on the back-burner for a while because I didn’t want people to think I was picking up on real-life events. In the end I felt that I had to write this story and the narrative really unrolled itself so it was a case of me keeping up with its progress. It is not unusual for a book to come in a burst such as Nation did. The first novel I ever wrote was for children and I find that children’s books really fly."

He put other things aside to work on Nation. It took him a year.

There is currently (November 2009) a production of Nation as a play, adapted by Mark Ravenhill, at the National Theatre in London. Nation will be be broadcast to cinema audiences as part of NT Live in January 2010.

The National Theatre has teamed up with The Guardian newspaper to launch a competition for 10-17 yr olds to create their own short film based on an extract from Nation, with the winners films screened before the NT Live broadcast on 30 January 2010.

There are good interviews with Terry Pratchett about Nation on Youtube:

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chrqB9Y5d9U&feature=PlayList&p=A4B68102703A1800&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=4 7 minutes]

[[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqxc4H6UX5U 3 minutes: Part of the National Theatre competition]]

== synopsis ==

Are we going to write synopsis' for these books? --[[User:ArchchancellorJoe|ArchchancellorJoe]] 16:18, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

We haven't before and I hope not and there's a fine for greengrocers' apostrophes (no apostrophe). --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 17:35, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

== Missing Pages ==
While looking around the pages linked to this book I found that there are three pages that existe but are blank when opened; should they be deleted or left as they are? The pages are [[Pilu]], [[Raiders]] and [[Polegrave]]. --[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] 19:43, 14 June 2011 (CEST)

It would be better if we could add content to these pages. They were created as a result of vanledism but never the less are pages which should be updated. --[[User:BOZZ|BOZZ]] 13:21, 15 June 2011 (CEST)
:If a desirable page is deleted it will produce a dire-looking warning which may deter a new contributor who tries to repair it. I prefer to leave them alone. The downside is that there's no red link to indicate the vacancy, of course. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 00:20, 16 June 2011 (CEST)

Is their any way to change the warning to say that the page was deleted because of vandalism and that it is okay to repair them? If not they could just be marked as stubs--[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] 01:32, 16 June 2011 (CEST) (I would have tried to add content but I had to return the copy of Nation I was reading to my library)
:The short answer to re-writing the edit warning is "no". Marking them as stubs wouldn't hurt, but they'd still be blue. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 01:52, 16 June 2011 (CEST)

==Truth as strange as fiction?==
https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/archaeology/a69445731/ancient-boats-found-southeast-asia-timeline/?utm_source=firefox-newtab-en-us

Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum

2025-11-16T05:29:36Z

Old Dickens:

 '''This is a location to discuss non-content matters (what do we do with content disputes, vandalism, etc, what do we want to do with this wiki, and so on).'''

<div class="quotebox">This is the page for current discussions.

Archives
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 1]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 2]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 3]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 4]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 5]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 6]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 7]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 8]]
</div>

==AI content and fan project promotion==
So we have a new contributor (hello [[User:DugBride|DugBride]] if you’re reading this) who is adding AI-generated images to pages without images, and attributing them to their fan project, [https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3162903/oath-stories-discworld/page/1 a Discworld “re-skin” of the board game ''Oath'']. Which means the time has come for us to have a policy about AI-generated content. As a writer, actor, teacher, podcaster and more, every facet of my life is currently being made worse or at best more complicated by diffusion model images and large language model text, so I’m not a fan. But I recognise that’s not necessarily a majority opinion. So: what do we think? I don’t think we want AI text here at all, and at a bare minimum I want art to be clearly attributed to the model that created it. I would prefer hand-drawn fan art for character and item art, and I confess I am not a fan of some of the images uploaded so far, but again I recognise that’s a preference. But I am also not in favour of the wiki being filled up with images that promote a fan project, even if it is one I’m interested in. (This is why I have limited mention of my own podcast here, and started my own wiki for the detail I wanted to share.) What do you folks think? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 22:48, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
:I'm not a fan either, of course, and I would certainly ban AI-generated text, except how would you recognise it? Images are more difficult. What if the image were created in an old-fashioned (two years ago?) drawing program? What about photographs? I expect you know a lot more about the process than I; what if the AI is just used to smooth out an original drawing or color it, or...? Enforcement seems to be the hardest part. Other ideas, anyone? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:37, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
I’m not proposing we get too draconian about it, but having an official policy (or as close to official as we get) is enough to get us started. If folks want to ignore the rules and do it anyway, we can address that if necessary. I would just like us to be clear about whether we want images created by a diffusion model - which is to say, a generative AI like MidJourney or Dall-E which takes a text prompt and then creates an image based on analysis of training images (many used without permission) and associated descriptions. If someone makes art themselves and includes some kind of computer assistance in their process, I am not that fussed, just as I don’t mind if someone has a chat with ChatGPT to get inspiration for the fanfic they then go on to write. But the kind of thing created just by prompting an algorithm seems rather against the fandom spirit of L-Space, to me; fandom involves community, and that means if you need art for a project, you talk to other fans and find fan artists who are willing to help. An example policy might be something like: “This wiki does not permit the use of content created wholly or primarily by generative AI systems, including large language and diffusion models for text or art. All text added should be the work of the contributor; any art uploaded should be done so only with permission, and attributed to the creator.” -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 08:00, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

::Hi there thanks for the welcome and open discussion I was aware both issues you have raised were contentious which is why I messaged [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] direct before touching a page to get the go ahead to open this can of worms. I don't know how the back end of these things work so had to feel my way and have learned a fair bit in the past couple of days. Including where you talk about these things.<br> Here is where I am at...I would say if you don't like AI content then don't allow any AI content, if it is uploaded but then attributed to the model then I think you would be promoting it and will get a lot more. It has been surprisingly easy for me as a first time user to access and upload images seemingly without any gatekeeping, I am sure you already have safeguards against this but you may want to relook at those if you are hoping people will act in good faith. As for the project promotion, I agree it's a bit too much and if it's OK I will remove all references just leave the link in in my profile. Following the example set by [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]. I will of course not add any more pics but, it might be best if the current images stay while you make your decision, a picture tells a 1000 words even if those words are “we don't want these pictures” if then they are removed you may have to do it because although I can remove the page code, I have no idea how to delete uploaded files. Ironically I have been using both this reference and [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]’s podcast regularly without knowing they are connected for the last few months to get up to speed on Discworld, it took me all my life to read most of the books and so I have had to take shortcuts to work on the project references. I have a lot of respect for both sources and wouldn't want to cause any trouble. <br> If the images are unwelcome then I doubt I will have much to add as a contributor, there are a few unanswered questions when doing my research that I might be able to offer something on; Holy horns gesture? Guild Weathervanes? But you seem to have a lot covered and I have my own shed to be working in, maybe further down the road if you need some help administrating incoming imagery then I can help, although my field is Digital Imagery I am no artist and no expert in spotting deep fakes either. Finally I am thrilled you have both looked at my work in progress even if your not fans, I appreciate discerning feedback but happy to keep in my shed for now where I can choose how long Carrot has grown his hair. [[User:DugBride|DugBride]] 11:44, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
Hey DugBride - I might not be a fan of the art, or even ''Oath'', but your project is pretty amazing! And we do have a [[Fandom]] page where you could list it, at the very least. I want to thank you for engaging in this discussion in generous good faith, too. I’m not interested in having to police images really, but I think if we have a policy and find the right place to get it in front of users then that should be enough - I’m not expecting a torrent of diffusion model generated Discworld characters any time soon! — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:10, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
:I'd go along with Guybrush's policy statement, above, now, where does it go? I wouldn't like a big banner of "don'ts" on the front page, but if it's in "About", or Help:Editing nobody will read it. Help:Editing is already noted at the top of every editing page, so I guess we could say ignorance of the law is no excuse. I have to defer to Guybrush on interpretation of what's too much AI; I don't suppose it's possible to credit the source in an AI image when there might be dozens. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:44, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
::I think on image upload I had to tick a box marked "this is my own work" If it had said this is my own work and not AI generated I would have halted at that point. Apologies for the multi edits; still learning. --[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] ([[User talk:DugBride|talk]]) 12:33, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
This is a pretty good idea. What if we create a policies page (it could also include guidelines on annotations etc) and then link to that from the upload page? We can probably change the language on the upload page itself, too. And to be honest ownership is part of the problem; at the moment the ownership of generated images is murky at best, and it’s certainly unclear who owns copyright. So that does seem like the right place to put it. — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:10, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
On the subject of “how much AI is too much AI” I don’t think that’s a big problem; right now the thing we don’t want are wholly generated images - things created by diffusion models and similar tools, stuff like MidJourney or Dall-E, which create an image for you based on a text prompt. We don’t need to worry about folks using “AI” tools when making digital fan art (anything vaguely automated is being misleadingly lLabelled “AI” At the moment, even when many of those technologies already existed under other more sensible names). Perhaps we just need a clarifying clause on the “your own artwork” covering that it has to be yours, used with permission, allowed by copyright law and attributable to a person. I think it will also help to include in our art policy that as a fan project we want to showcase fan artists; you are welcome to use whatever you like to make art for yourself or or your own projects, but here we want to showcase human-drawn (etc) fan art. And as a longer term solution, perhaps I can do some call-outs in other fan spaces asking if folks have character and location fan art they’d be happy for us to use on the wiki for articles which lack images? — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:24, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
:I second all that, except that the '''Upload file''' page is for images and doesn't relate to annotations; also it's a "special page" and Osiris would have to modify it. '''Help:editing''' is already linked from editing pages. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:19, 14 December 2023 (UTC)<BR>
:[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] has removed his contributions. I'm of two minds on this; I have despised computer-generated pop music for many years now and I would prefer hand-made art or clever photographs, ''but'' we've begged for illustration for years and some of what we have isn't very good. I wish we could have more as useful as PetuliaGristle.jpg for example. Are these opposite and irreconcilable viewpoints? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:17, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
:: Missed one, just removed Detritus from the page this morning, like I said I can't do much about the images I uploaded as it won't let me delete the copy on the server. I sympathise with your issue, there are significant characters and locations without graphical representation. The AI works for me as I have to produce 250 images for a very small audience on zero budget, and I am more keen on design and mechanics than artistry. I don't think its as vital a part of your offering. Its possible that in the new year I will take [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]'s advise and reach out to some of the fan-artists to see if they want to help my project but only when I have something significant to demonstrate. I'll be happy to mention the gaps here that need filling, but it sounds like you have already been down that road. --[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] ([[User talk:DugBride|talk]]) 12:00, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
:::Hi, all, sorry I'm late to the discussion... boarding school at Hogswatch is a time sink. Anyway, y'all have said pretty much everything I would have, so all I'll do here is lend one more voice in support of Guybrush's suggestion, ''This wiki does not permit the use of content created wholly or primarily by generative AI systems, including large language and diffusion models for text or art. All text added should be the work of the contributor; any art uploaded should be done so only with permission, and attributed to the creator.'' I don't think we need to do much more in terms of advertising or enforcement, as long as we have something like this clearly stated somewhere. People don't necessarily read rules before editing. If we find someone using ChatGPT to make articles, we politely ask them to stop, and can point them to the statement if they wonder whether the polite ask has community consensus behind it. [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 01:01, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
:Have you watched ''The Holdovers''? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:30, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
::I haven't, but I just read about the movie... boarding schools are (for the most part) very, very different places in 2023 than they were in 1970. Yet, the popular perception of class privilege and influence lives on in the zeitgeist. My school doesn't allow students to remain on campus over Christmas break. The ones for whom getting home would be prohibitive - usually just a few folks from overseas - generally stay with friends. We have a faculty member who helps coordinate such stays if students need help. My family hosted several of my son's friends, who were from China and Vietnam, on occasion.

::Okay, in spring 2020 most of our international students remained on campus, and I was one of many faculty who volunteered to chaperone / entertain them. That's a very different story, with very different cultural context, to what I read about The Holdovers. <smile>

==Atom==
Clicking '''Atom''' in the sidebar bar produces the message: "This XML file does not appear to have any style information associated with it. The document tree is shown below.", followed by pages of XML gibberish. Not widely useful. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:34, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
:The Atom link is only visible in Recent Changes, your Watchlist or the history of a specific page, and generates an RSS feed (in [[wikipedia:Atom (web standard)|Atom format]]) from entries in that list using XML which is (hypothetically) useful for other apps or websites to read. The main use case I’ve seen for that recently is a Discord bot which posts recent changes to a specific text channel, but generally speaking RSS has fallen from favour for most uses except podcasting. The Atom feed option is built in to MediaWiki so we can’t remove it by [[mediawiki:Sidebar|editing the sidebar menu]], but probably there’s an option to disable it in the config file if we really want to. (FYI I don’t get the error you mentioned, though I did get a different one trying to view the feed for my Watchlist that suggests we might have an out of date extension somewhere?) — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 12:29, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

==Spamagain==
Suddenly, the SEOs are back! [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:34, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
:Might be time to turn on new account approval? I run a plugin for that on my wiki, works pretty well. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 09:08, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
::May I ask the name of the plugin you use? I wanted to switch to Turnstyle captcha but that isn't in the stable release of Mediawiki yet --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 04:02, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
:I use [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:ConfirmAccount Confirm User Accounts]. I get a little spam (I just checked and there were three junk requests) but they doesn’t slow down the wiki or result in any vandalism. It has a “Spam” response which doesn’t send an email to the requester. The main downsides are that you have to respond to each request individually, and it does throw a couple of error messages, though nothing serious. (I’m currently running MediaWiki 1.40.1 and Confirm User Accounts 224079f.) It might not be the best available! -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 07:44, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
Twenty-five at once is getting back to the bad old days! [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:01, 1 August 2024 (UTC)<BR>
Forty-three so far today, almost all from the same source. I wonder what the "human not bot" filter does. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:25, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

It's getting to be a bit much, and for extra annoyance, when I'm logged in I can't see any but the most recent deletions. If I log out, I can see that the spammers I've just deleted still show, but I can't do anything with them. Fortunately, they don't seem to be active but they still show in Recent changes. Can AI-assisted bots now defeat any captcha? , [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:27, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

The Chicago insurance agent is getting really tiresome. It can do fifteen at once all day and night, apparently automated. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:13, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

:Any word on user account approval, [[User:Osiris|Osiris]]? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:37, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

The log in procedure seems to have changed and there's a pause in vandalism. Will it last? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:41, 14 November 2024 (UTC)...no, they're back. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:23, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

== Independent Wiki Federation? ==
I think we'd be a prime candidate for membership in the [https://indiewikifederation.org/ Independent Wiki Federation], which might be a nice way to attract some additional contributors and mods. They also have a very friendly Discord full of very knowledgeable folk who specialise in MediaWiki and might be able to help us solve our spam woes. What do we reckon? Doesn't cost us anything, and it would link us to a bigger community. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 07:29, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
:I don't see why not, but I suppose [[User:Osiris|Osiris]] would have to apply. (I wouldn't even know where to find the org-application channel.) [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:24, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
:: I’m happy to do the paperwork, as it were, but only if we have consensus here that we want to do it. In any case I’m on the Discord and I’ll ask for some advice about dealing with spam account creation. It’s really gotten out of hand. — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 21:30, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
:Indeed. (No opinion from [[User:Osiris|headquarters]].) [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:41, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

==More trolls==
Well, today must be the worst ever. Over a hundred.surely. (The counter doesn't even try to keep track.) [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:40, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
:The CAPTCHA isn’t doing anything to slow them down; I’ve finally got around to asking for suggestions from the IWF (as mentioned above; it got away from me.) I’ll report when I hear anything! -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:45, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

== New art process? ==
I’ve been keeping an eye out on Reddit and other social media for Discworld fan art to help provide pictures of various characters. I recently asked one if they’d like to join - and they did! Welcome [[User:HeiryProblems|HeiryProblems]]. They don’t have wiki experience so I’ve been helping them get started, but so far the art they’ve done is for characters who have existing art. Should we update the art? Add a gallery section for characters to showcase more than one bit of fan art? Not sure what the best step there is. (I’ve helped [[User:HeiryProblems|HeiryProblems]] with a gallery of works on their user page, so you can see some there.) -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:49, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

:I don't see any upgrades in illustrations there (too cartoonish}, Add a gallery section of illustrations maybe, or a fan art section? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:59, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

== Suggestions for stopping the SEO spambots ==
I asked at the IWF, and was recommended a few different MediaWiki extensions: [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:ConfirmEdit ConfirmEdit] (which we do have installed), [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:HoneyPot HoneyPot] (which we don't) and [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:QuestyCaptcha QuestyCaptcha] (now part of ComfirmEdit), which adds questions users have to answer when submitting an edit - something I think we have or had on this Wiki, for new users at least? One of the admins and founders of IWF specifically recommended AbuseFilter (which we do have installed) and supplied the list of keywords he uses which he says works very well to stop nearly all spam on his wikis. I see I have permission to add new filters to AbuseFilter, so I'm going to give this a try. The same person also recommended that as a last ditch option we could try deactivating open account creation completely for a week or so. The bots will find themselves unable to do their thing, and eventually take us off their lists of places to try. We don't get a lot of legit new users so this ought to be okay, and if anyone asks during that period we admins should be able to manually make them an account. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 23:42, 28 January 2025 (UTC)
:Oh, almost forgot - they also recommended the [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:UserMerge UserMerge] extension as a way to delete multiple users at once, basically by merging a bunch of spambot accounts into one, then deleting the one that's left. We already have this one installed, too, so worth a look? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 23:56, 28 January 2025 (UTC)
::Yes, we used Questy for a while and we had Merge for a while, which I enjoyed. I've thought before that we could handle manual approval of new users but I don't know how difficult it might be to set up. I've been wondering if any captcha can defeat AI-enhanced bots. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:27, 29 January 2025 (UTC)
:::CAPTCHA, no - but the new filter in AbuseFilter seems to be working, it's already caught and auto-blocked one spambot from the tail end of the burst we got around the time I added the rule. The real test will be the next big influx, but I feel optimistic that it'll catch and block those accounts while also preventing them from creating those pages. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 04:59, 29 January 2025 (UTC)

== Spambot update ==
Things are mostly looking good on this front!
* The new AbuseFilter rule is working, [[Special:AbuseLog|and only seems to be blocking spambots]]. So hopefully our spambot problem is solved!
* We still have a large number of spambot accounts that flew under our radar before this. They’re pretty easy to identify via the [[Special:ActiveUsers|list of active users]], though - they’re only in the list because the account was recently created, and they either have zero edits or just a user page. Worth looking for an extension that automatically deletes unused accounts after a period of time?
:: Update on this - there’s a maintenance script for this purpose: [[mw:Manual:RemoveUnusedAccounts.php|RemoveUnusedAccounts.php]]. Might be worth running, [[User:Osiris|Osiris]]? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 22:33, 6 February 2025 (UTC)
* The AbuseFilter has a block time of 3 days which is much better than my manual block time - I naively used 3 months or <strike>1 year</strike> indefinite! This has caused a problem in that some fan artists I’ve been encouraging to share their work here have been unable to create an account because their IP is blocked.
For now, I’m going to find and unblock the IPs which haven’t seen activity for a while; new spam accounts will be blocked by AbuseFilter. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 22:24, 6 February 2025 (UTC)
:Hallelujah! Most of them seem to have stopped trying, even. Only three in the last four days. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:16, 6 February 2025 (UTC)
::Yeah, once the first attempt is blocked you don’t get thirty more the same day! So we should see only small numbers when they do crop up. You’ll see some activity from today in the block log - that’s me going through and reducing the time for a bunch of old blocks I’d put in place, so they’ll expire soon (it was a bit quicker and easier to do that than manually unblock them). Hopefully that will help with new user signups which were being blocked. The rest ought to expire in the next few months, so hopefully as they disappear we’ll see those new user registration problems stop as well. Now we just need to start cleaning up all those bot user accounts... -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 00:29, 10 February 2025 (UTC)
:Now that you mention it, I used indefinite blocking (not knowing any better) back in the last major attack, before The Move, and it didn't seem to cause a problem. Another piece I don't understand; I'd have thought there were more IP addresses than that. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:50, 10 February 2025 (UTC)
::Well, there are a huge number of possible IP addresses, but owning a unique one with direct Internet access isn’t free. Regular Internet users get allocated an IP from a pool available to their ISP, and people running SEO spam might get their Internet access through the same companies. Long block times make this more likely - an IP address once used by bots has probably since been freed up and used by a legit service. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 03:54, 10 February 2025 (UTC)
:::I've been shamefully absent from this wiki for a bit, owing to a new daily morning show I've been doing and to a bit of depression since November. I'll try to get back to putzing around, but THANK YOU to all keeping the spam away. I'm not good at technical things, so I appreciate those who are.[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 23:02, 16 February 2025 (UTC)
:One got through today, though. Spam hidden in a link with only Korean? name. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:07, 18 February 2025 (UTC)
:Again today, spam only within a link. Every two weeks isn't bad, I suppose. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:33, 4 March 2025 (UTC)
::Thanks for the tip-off; I’ll have a look out for the next one and see if there are any obvious keywords I can add. We should think about what to do about the accounts that are created but don’t post anything, too. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 11:37, 12 March 2025 (UTC)
:Well, they're back. New style: a boilerplate user page followed by a long page of nonsense with no filter triggers. I guess the point is seo. Slowing the wiki quite a lot, too. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 17:23, 14 March 2025 (UTC)
::If you can capture the text from one before you delete it, that’d be very helpful! I’m sure we can find something in there that’s worth using in an update to the filter, especially combined with the absence of Discworld-appropriate keywords. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 07:58, 16 March 2025 (UTC)
:E-mailing rather than re-publishing it, but I doubt you can pick keywords. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:11, 17 March 2025 (UTC)
::Thanks for letting me know - thought you might have been hacked there for a second! It’s true that’s a difficult one, since it seems to be text stolen from an unrelated source. But some otherwise inoccuous words can go on the list when we consider the page also has to be missing the Discworld keywords in the other part of the filter. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 04:58, 17 March 2025 (UTC)
:Do you want another one? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:57, 18 March 2025 (UTC)
::If there's another representative one with a different theme, yeah! I think the changes I made have helped? Basically I'm adding keywords which while not indicative of spam links on their own, would be weird to see appear on a page on this wiki without some more Pratchett or Discworld related words as well. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 22:23, 23 March 2025 (UTC)
:Sure, but don't overdo it, it's working pretty well. I assume the restrictions only apply to a first post? E-mail away. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:49, 24 March 2025 (UTC)
::That's right - this filter only applies to a user's first edit, so a real person who probably makes a reasonable edit to an existing page before creating a user page, or creates a reasonable user page, will be fine. (The block also only lasts three days, and we can remove it if anyone gets caught by mistake.) I've added several more, but the formatting in that last one you sent seemed to be a failed template that I think was a rich source of potential options. It should stop a few more without going overboard! -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 10:47, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

== The Perils of Automatic Blocking ==
It says that blocking KendraGatlin also blocked me, but maybe administrators get away with it? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:28, 4 April 2025 (UTC)
:Hmmm...yes, this is the problem with blocking IP addresses, though I wouldn't have thought it'd be so prevalent! It's affected a few fan artists I've tried to recruit as well. But this is a good reason to keep the block times short! -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 14:58, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

==Another exception==
Hmm. User:JuliannHooks got by the filter although the page contained "my web-page". Probably because JuliannHooks is not a new user, having been blocked last year? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:31, 14 April 2025 (UTC)
Likewise, User:RicardoBiraban. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:36, 16 April 2025 (UTC)
:The filter focuses on first edits, so yeah - if they’d already made an edit and their account still existed... This is why we need to figure out the most efficient way to delete the bot accounts. The usual way is to merge them into a generic user account, but I haven’t figured out the best way to do that for large numbers yet. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 00:50, 19 April 2025 (UTC)
We used to have Merge, too. It was very convenient. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:58, 19 April 2025 (UTC)<BR>

I wonder how these people are getting through with banned phrases and no previous record. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 19:27, 16 June 2025 (UTC)
:The current spam detector is based only on first edit, could they be making an innocuous one first and then something else? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 11:10, 18 June 2025 (UTC)
That was the loophole for some, but the latest batch shows no previous Contributions. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:15, 18 June 2025 (UTC

==Slowdown?==
It's very time-consuming killing spammers with the wiki as slow as it is. I wonder what happened there. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:13, 24 September 2025 (UTC)<BR>
Service seems to back to full speed today. Much nicer. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:56, 28 September 2025 (UTC)<BR>
But then it's back to dead slow! ¿Que pasa? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:42, 28 September 2025 (UTC)

== AbuseFilter update ==
Hi all - I’ve just added a few terms to the anti-spam rule in the AbuseFilter, as another wiki I work on has recently been hit and it has a lot more “fake guide” content than the keywords currently in the list. The postive words should prevent this from being a problem. I wonder if it’s also worth updating to the latest version of MediaWiki - I think the newest one has made some improvements to the AbuseFilter. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 22:05, 7 November 2025 (UTC)

== Another tool to get rid of the spam - SmiteSpam ==
I’ve just tried the [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:SmiteSpam SmiteSpam extension] on another wiki and it’s pretty great - it handled a few thousand spambot accounts and pages very quickly (compared to doing them manually). It would speed up the deletion of spambot accounts here, at least ones that manage to create a page, anyway. (I’m not sure if it detects accounts that don’t do anything.) The false-positive count was very low, and it shows you a list of suspect users and the pages they created for you to check before you get it to action anything. Worth a go? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 06:10, 10 November 2025 (UTC)
:I know nothing and Osiris says nothing. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:29, 16 November 2025 (UTC)

Talk:TV and Film:The Watch

2025-11-14T04:45:51Z

Old Dickens: so?

Suggested: The page currently says that Wonse and Throat are original characters. I think it's fairly clear that Throat will be Cut-Me-Own-Throat Dibbler, and Wonse will be Lupine Wonse from ''Guards! Guards!''.
:I don't know how clear that is when they're both female and other characters are similarly transformed. Presumably they fill similar roles, but changing sex would make them and others fairly original. I'd have to see the finished product (but I'm not keen on modernised Shakespeare, either). --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 17:38, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
::The name and descriptions currently available pretty clearly links them to the existing characters, though? Throat is directly said to be "based on Cut-Me-Own-Throat Dibbler" in the release, so that's unambiguous, while Wonse is described as "re-imagined", which indicates a character at least drawing inspiration from the existing one. I think it'd be better not to create separate articles but to have an "In Other Media" section for the originals detailing their differences, much as you find on Wikipedia. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 03:36, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
:::Yes this should be edited, I jumped the gun calling these characters original because they are so far removed from the book characters e.g. [https://metro.co.uk/2019/11/19/doctor-who-star-ingrid-oliver-cast-in-terry-pratchetts-bbc-adaptation-of-the-watch-11183230/ 'While Ruth Madeley will star as the wiry Throat, the city’s best snitch, with a gang of freelance henchmen at her beck and call.']. However it has been stated that they are based on the book characters 'The character of Throat was male in the original books so for the team to cast me was extra exciting. I'm really looking forward to seeing how Throat develops and what mischief she can bring.' So given the information presented so far 'in name only' or 'inspired by' would be better descriptions (and even then that would only partially apply to Throat) but this is subject to revision when the series comes out. So I'll remove the original characters line. [[User:Jagra|Jagra]] ([[User talk:Jagra|talk]]) 14:46, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
:Opinions from Rhianna Pratchett and Neil Gaiman seem to confirm my fears: [https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/oct/12/bbc-the-watch-shares-no-dna-with-terry-pratchett-work-daughter-rhianna from The Guardian.] --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:10, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
:[https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/apr/28/terry-pratchett-novels-faithful-tv-adaptation-discworld hmmm] --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:48, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

==Verdict?==
I haven't heard about "The Watch" for some time. Is the verdict in? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:45, 14 November 2025 (UTC)

User talk:Maria Rombach

2025-10-23T04:35:56Z

Old Dickens: Welcome

Thanks for being the first new contributor in quite a while. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:35, 23 October 2025 (UTC)

User talk:PawPatroler

2025-09-30T21:04:17Z

Old Dickens: Wrong wiki

Hello. I received an e-mail from you regarding your problem with Wikipedia, but I'm afraid I can't help. We are not connected to Wikipedia and I have no influence there. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:04, 30 September 2025 (UTC)

Nobby Nobbs

2025-09-29T01:35:26Z

Old Dickens: link

{{Character Data
|title= Nobby Nobbs
|photo=nobbymine.jpg|Nobby Nobbs by [[User:Darkplush|Kit Cox]]
|name= Cecil Wormsborough St John Nobbs
|age= forty-something, about eight years younger than Sam Vimes
|race= [[Humans|Human]], he has the [[Nobby's note|papers]] to prove it
|occupation= member of the [[Ankh-Morpork Watch]]
|appearance= described as sidling even when standing, monkey-like, and small.
|residence= [[Ankh-Morpork]]
|death=
|parents= Father, [[Sconner Nobbs]] and Mother, [[Maisie Nobbs]]
|relatives= Brother, [[Errol Nobbs]] and cousin, Vincent; Granny Nobbs (deceased)
|children=
|marital status=
|books=[[:Category:Watch Series|Watch Series]]
|cameos={{MP}}, {{H}}, {{M!!!}}, {{SM}}, {{TT}}, {{GP}}, {{MM}}, {{ISWM}}
}}
'''Cecil Wormsborough St John Nobbs''' (St John pronounced as <i><u>Sin</u>-jun</i>), ''Mr. Steel-toecaps-in-the-groin, I-was-just-checking-the-doorhandle-and-it-opened-all-by-itself'', usually called '''Nobby''', has a long history in the Pratchett world, most of which is unsavoury. This probably pertains to his person rather than any particular act: Nobby, perhaps, should have been disqualified from the human race (for shoving). Nobby, shall we say, acquires things. He is ''good'' at acquiring things. He keeps moving rooms at [[Pseudopolis Yard]] owing to his habit of filling them up. Nobby likes to take small things that nobody is watching, but that perhaps is not very rare in [[Ankh-Morpork]]. He had been a street urchin, and it appears that he has never grown out of the habits he acquired back then. He has been playfully described as "''only bad in the same way that a weasel is evil''," lacking the maliciousness, stupid bravery. or hubris of genuinely unsavory characters. In short, Nobby ain't half bad, and he looks after his mates, but he looks after himself first, as you do, "''and I didn't do it, it was Fred, see''?"

Nobby is the only human known to need to carry a [[Nobby's note|declaration]], signed by [[Vetinari|Lord Vetinari]] to the effect that; "''following affidavits from the midwife and a doctor, I confirm that the bearer is, in all probability, human''." Characters up to and including Death ([[Hogfather]]) are sometimes hesitant to comment.

Nobby has been a corporal in the [[Ankh-Morpork City Watch]] for quite a while, and is quite determined to stay at that rank. He is unusually perceptive about being used by authority, and like [[Rincewind]], knows all about why '''''not''''' to volunteer no matter how many incentives are offered. He has been in many military regiments, and was once Quartermaster for the [[Pseudopolis]] army (who coincidentally lost wars due to weapon shortages); when Carrot asked who he sold them to, Nobby said that they merely spent a long time away for cleaning. In his spare time, Nobby is a member of the [[Ankh-Morpork Folk Dance and Song Society]] and the historical re-enactment society, the [[Peeled Nuts]], which he takes quite seriously.

During his old friend [[Fred Colon]]'s short and tyrannical reign as Captain of the Watch, Nobby served as the opposition leader, President of the [[Watchmen's Guild]]. It should be added that shortly before, Nobby had been dropping some most uncharacteristic hints to the effect that if Colon had been promoted Acting-Captain, he, Nobbs, should therefore be given a crack at Acting-Sergeant. This one-and-only attempt to get a further promotion having been ignored completely, it is possible that Nobby's later action in leading a strike was at least partially motivated by pique at his old friend's inability to see a clear hint when written in unsubtle six-foot neon-glowing letters. Until then, Nobby had been a loyal supporter of the Colon regime and had been doing his best to mitigate dissent on the shop floor. (And it also displayed the essential difference between a Corporal Nobbs and a Corporal [[Strappi]]: even when placed in a potentially Strappi-like position, Nobby would not have grassed on any of his mates.) Despite the image of dual buffonery, Nobby is often more insightful and cunning than Fred or at least less apt to let pride and bravado cloud his thinking.

Nobby is both a romantic and a cynic. He is enthusiastic about folk-dancing and historical re-creation, activities considered by the average Ankh-Morporkian to be the pursuits of a twit. On the other hand, he is good at picking out weak points in other people's arguments, and he believes there is always a catch in a good offer. One day he hopes to have a young lady, but he's not easily pleased. Recently the incredibly gorgeous [[Tawneee]] fell for him, (suffering from the worst-known case of ''Jerk Syndrome'',) but its been implied that he has turned her down for her lack of culinary skill. Other women have tended to throw things at him - especially [[Verity Pushpram]]. Following a trip to [[Klatch (country)|Klatch]], he has become worryingly enthusiastic about the prospect of undercover work, particularly that which involves dressing up as a woman.

Nobby has a tattoo on his arm saying "'''''WUM'''''." It was supposed to be "'''''MUM'''''" but he passed out through alcohol and [[Needle Ned]] didn't spot that he was upside-down.
[[Image:Wum.jpg|200px|thumb|left|Picture of Nobby's tattoo by [[User:Knmatt|Matt Smith]]]]

Nobby is shorter than many [[dwarfs]], and due to a personal hygiene problem he can tarnish and corrode any metal near him. One of his hobbies is doing tricks with his spots. He lodges many half-smoked cigarettes behind his ears. People who meet him for the first time usually think of him as either a dwarf or a monkey. Currently, he carries a affidavits signed by Lord [[Havelock Vetinari]] attesting to his species, as the [[Patrician]] has heard testimony from the midwife Mrs [[Slipdry]]: both of Nobby's parents were humans:

Nobby is son of Sconner Nobbs and Maisie of [[Elm Street]] (also reported as Old Cobblers : the family sometimes moved quite suddenly, usually at night.) Nobby grew up in one of those impoverished families in Ankh-Morpork. He is probably the youngest child, since it is unthinkable that any parent could look at baby Nobby and decide to try to have another. He has, or had, a brother, Errol, after whom the heroic [[Errol|swamp dragon]] was named. In the extended family, Nobby's cousins and relatives include several petty criminals. Little is known about Nobby's mother [[Maisie Nobbs|Maisie]], but from Nobby's own words, it can be gathered that his father [[Sconner Nobbs]] used to hide from the military police and make all the family hide in the cellar, and that Sconner used to beat Nobby, and presumably his brother Errol too, sometimes to the point of breaking bones (according to Night Watch). Nobby has a couple of scars, and a trick elbow by which to remember his father (see ''[[Book:Feet of Clay|Feet of Clay]]''). Nobby's cousin, Vincent, was once charged with indecently assaulting the Duchess of Quirm's scullery maid.

According to [[Dragon King of Arms]] in [[Feet of Clay]] Nobby was descended from the Earl of Ankh, though this can not be proven. The only 'proof' is a corroded ring which Nobby ''claims'' to have gotten from his father, but considering he was the one sent to retrieve the corpse of the unfortunate [[Edward d'Eath]], the last person known to hold the ring, this proof is... well, it's clearly not. On the other hand, the ring Edward d'Eath held was royal jewelry, not earldom jewelry, and may not have been the same one Nobby had (see ''[[Book:Men at Arms|Men at Arms]]''). He owns also a tiara, a coronet and three gold lockets (see {{FOC}})...

At the end of {{SN}}, after being tragically spurned by [[Verity Pushpram]], (who is marrying another), Nobby's luck appears to have changed for the better - well, changed, anyway. He is seen to have acquired a [[Goblins|very singular girlfriend]], Shine of the Rainbow, who is completely matched to him and who in a very fittingly Quirmian way has switched him on to eating snails. Although his prospective in-laws might still be fearful their daughter is trading down... Nobby also finds himself promoted, at least to acting-sergeant, as [[Fred Colon]] is on long-term sick leave. This is justified by his being attached to the new Waterside Constabulary, under the command of Chief Constable [[Feeney Upshot]], to get it off the ground and provide on-the-job training in the, er, ''realities'' of police work.

His relationship with [[Shine of the Rainbow]] seems to have flourished as of {{RS}}, as [[Fred Colon]] calls Nobby a "very nearly married man". Perhaps our favourite thieving romantic has found a partner after all...

== Fan Art ==
<gallery mode=packed heights=300px>
File:Nobby_HP.webp|By [[User:HeiryProblems|Mile Mićić]]
</gallery>

== Annotations ==
* Iona and Peter Opie's <i>Lore and Language of Schoolchildren</i> notes that Nobby is a slang term for a policeman.
* The reason his first name is Cecil may be due to Terry Pratchett being a fan of the US Cecil Adams' series called <i>Straight Dope</i>. Alternatively, Cecil Sharp was an avid collector of English Folk song and dances. He was the founder of the English Folk Dance Society, now known as the English Folk Dance and Song Society.[http://www.efdss.org/]
* In [[TV and Film:Hogfather|the TV adaption of ''Hogfather'']] he was played by [http://www.skyone.co.uk/hogfather/images/gal_20.jpg Nicholas Tennant], who went on to play [[Horace Worblehat]]/The [[Librarian]] in [[TV and Film:The Colour of Magic|the TV adaptation of ''The Light Fantastic'']].

== Trivia ==
* In its entirety, the writ Nobby carries around with him, as shown in {{FOC}}, reads: ''I, after hearing evidence from a number of experts, including Mrs. Slipdry the midwife, certify that the balance of probability is that the bearer of this document, C.W.St John Nobbs, is a [[human]] being. Signed, Lord Vetinari.''

{{DEFAULTSORT:Nobbs, Nobby}}
[[Category:Discworld characters]]
[[category:Supporting characters]]
[[category:Serial characters]]
[[Category:Human characters]]
[[Category:Watchmen]]
[[de:Cecil Wormsborough St John Nobbs]]

Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum

2025-09-28T22:42:56Z

Old Dickens:

 '''This is a location to discuss non-content matters (what do we do with content disputes, vandalism, etc, what do we want to do with this wiki, and so on).'''

<div class="quotebox">This is the page for current discussions.

Archives
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 1]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 2]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 3]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 4]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 5]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 6]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 7]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 8]]
</div>

==AI content and fan project promotion==
So we have a new contributor (hello [[User:DugBride|DugBride]] if you’re reading this) who is adding AI-generated images to pages without images, and attributing them to their fan project, [https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3162903/oath-stories-discworld/page/1 a Discworld “re-skin” of the board game ''Oath'']. Which means the time has come for us to have a policy about AI-generated content. As a writer, actor, teacher, podcaster and more, every facet of my life is currently being made worse or at best more complicated by diffusion model images and large language model text, so I’m not a fan. But I recognise that’s not necessarily a majority opinion. So: what do we think? I don’t think we want AI text here at all, and at a bare minimum I want art to be clearly attributed to the model that created it. I would prefer hand-drawn fan art for character and item art, and I confess I am not a fan of some of the images uploaded so far, but again I recognise that’s a preference. But I am also not in favour of the wiki being filled up with images that promote a fan project, even if it is one I’m interested in. (This is why I have limited mention of my own podcast here, and started my own wiki for the detail I wanted to share.) What do you folks think? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 22:48, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
:I'm not a fan either, of course, and I would certainly ban AI-generated text, except how would you recognise it? Images are more difficult. What if the image were created in an old-fashioned (two years ago?) drawing program? What about photographs? I expect you know a lot more about the process than I; what if the AI is just used to smooth out an original drawing or color it, or...? Enforcement seems to be the hardest part. Other ideas, anyone? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:37, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
I’m not proposing we get too draconian about it, but having an official policy (or as close to official as we get) is enough to get us started. If folks want to ignore the rules and do it anyway, we can address that if necessary. I would just like us to be clear about whether we want images created by a diffusion model - which is to say, a generative AI like MidJourney or Dall-E which takes a text prompt and then creates an image based on analysis of training images (many used without permission) and associated descriptions. If someone makes art themselves and includes some kind of computer assistance in their process, I am not that fussed, just as I don’t mind if someone has a chat with ChatGPT to get inspiration for the fanfic they then go on to write. But the kind of thing created just by prompting an algorithm seems rather against the fandom spirit of L-Space, to me; fandom involves community, and that means if you need art for a project, you talk to other fans and find fan artists who are willing to help. An example policy might be something like: “This wiki does not permit the use of content created wholly or primarily by generative AI systems, including large language and diffusion models for text or art. All text added should be the work of the contributor; any art uploaded should be done so only with permission, and attributed to the creator.” -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 08:00, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

::Hi there thanks for the welcome and open discussion I was aware both issues you have raised were contentious which is why I messaged [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] direct before touching a page to get the go ahead to open this can of worms. I don't know how the back end of these things work so had to feel my way and have learned a fair bit in the past couple of days. Including where you talk about these things.<br> Here is where I am at...I would say if you don't like AI content then don't allow any AI content, if it is uploaded but then attributed to the model then I think you would be promoting it and will get a lot more. It has been surprisingly easy for me as a first time user to access and upload images seemingly without any gatekeeping, I am sure you already have safeguards against this but you may want to relook at those if you are hoping people will act in good faith. As for the project promotion, I agree it's a bit too much and if it's OK I will remove all references just leave the link in in my profile. Following the example set by [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]. I will of course not add any more pics but, it might be best if the current images stay while you make your decision, a picture tells a 1000 words even if those words are “we don't want these pictures” if then they are removed you may have to do it because although I can remove the page code, I have no idea how to delete uploaded files. Ironically I have been using both this reference and [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]’s podcast regularly without knowing they are connected for the last few months to get up to speed on Discworld, it took me all my life to read most of the books and so I have had to take shortcuts to work on the project references. I have a lot of respect for both sources and wouldn't want to cause any trouble. <br> If the images are unwelcome then I doubt I will have much to add as a contributor, there are a few unanswered questions when doing my research that I might be able to offer something on; Holy horns gesture? Guild Weathervanes? But you seem to have a lot covered and I have my own shed to be working in, maybe further down the road if you need some help administrating incoming imagery then I can help, although my field is Digital Imagery I am no artist and no expert in spotting deep fakes either. Finally I am thrilled you have both looked at my work in progress even if your not fans, I appreciate discerning feedback but happy to keep in my shed for now where I can choose how long Carrot has grown his hair. [[User:DugBride|DugBride]] 11:44, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
Hey DugBride - I might not be a fan of the art, or even ''Oath'', but your project is pretty amazing! And we do have a [[Fandom]] page where you could list it, at the very least. I want to thank you for engaging in this discussion in generous good faith, too. I’m not interested in having to police images really, but I think if we have a policy and find the right place to get it in front of users then that should be enough - I’m not expecting a torrent of diffusion model generated Discworld characters any time soon! — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:10, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
:I'd go along with Guybrush's policy statement, above, now, where does it go? I wouldn't like a big banner of "don'ts" on the front page, but if it's in "About", or Help:Editing nobody will read it. Help:Editing is already noted at the top of every editing page, so I guess we could say ignorance of the law is no excuse. I have to defer to Guybrush on interpretation of what's too much AI; I don't suppose it's possible to credit the source in an AI image when there might be dozens. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:44, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
::I think on image upload I had to tick a box marked "this is my own work" If it had said this is my own work and not AI generated I would have halted at that point. Apologies for the multi edits; still learning. --[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] ([[User talk:DugBride|talk]]) 12:33, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
This is a pretty good idea. What if we create a policies page (it could also include guidelines on annotations etc) and then link to that from the upload page? We can probably change the language on the upload page itself, too. And to be honest ownership is part of the problem; at the moment the ownership of generated images is murky at best, and it’s certainly unclear who owns copyright. So that does seem like the right place to put it. — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:10, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
On the subject of “how much AI is too much AI” I don’t think that’s a big problem; right now the thing we don’t want are wholly generated images - things created by diffusion models and similar tools, stuff like MidJourney or Dall-E, which create an image for you based on a text prompt. We don’t need to worry about folks using “AI” tools when making digital fan art (anything vaguely automated is being misleadingly lLabelled “AI” At the moment, even when many of those technologies already existed under other more sensible names). Perhaps we just need a clarifying clause on the “your own artwork” covering that it has to be yours, used with permission, allowed by copyright law and attributable to a person. I think it will also help to include in our art policy that as a fan project we want to showcase fan artists; you are welcome to use whatever you like to make art for yourself or or your own projects, but here we want to showcase human-drawn (etc) fan art. And as a longer term solution, perhaps I can do some call-outs in other fan spaces asking if folks have character and location fan art they’d be happy for us to use on the wiki for articles which lack images? — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:24, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
:I second all that, except that the '''Upload file''' page is for images and doesn't relate to annotations; also it's a "special page" and Osiris would have to modify it. '''Help:editing''' is already linked from editing pages. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:19, 14 December 2023 (UTC)<BR>
:[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] has removed his contributions. I'm of two minds on this; I have despised computer-generated pop music for many years now and I would prefer hand-made art or clever photographs, ''but'' we've begged for illustration for years and some of what we have isn't very good. I wish we could have more as useful as PetuliaGristle.jpg for example. Are these opposite and irreconcilable viewpoints? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:17, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
:: Missed one, just removed Detritus from the page this morning, like I said I can't do much about the images I uploaded as it won't let me delete the copy on the server. I sympathise with your issue, there are significant characters and locations without graphical representation. The AI works for me as I have to produce 250 images for a very small audience on zero budget, and I am more keen on design and mechanics than artistry. I don't think its as vital a part of your offering. Its possible that in the new year I will take [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]'s advise and reach out to some of the fan-artists to see if they want to help my project but only when I have something significant to demonstrate. I'll be happy to mention the gaps here that need filling, but it sounds like you have already been down that road. --[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] ([[User talk:DugBride|talk]]) 12:00, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
:::Hi, all, sorry I'm late to the discussion... boarding school at Hogswatch is a time sink. Anyway, y'all have said pretty much everything I would have, so all I'll do here is lend one more voice in support of Guybrush's suggestion, ''This wiki does not permit the use of content created wholly or primarily by generative AI systems, including large language and diffusion models for text or art. All text added should be the work of the contributor; any art uploaded should be done so only with permission, and attributed to the creator.'' I don't think we need to do much more in terms of advertising or enforcement, as long as we have something like this clearly stated somewhere. People don't necessarily read rules before editing. If we find someone using ChatGPT to make articles, we politely ask them to stop, and can point them to the statement if they wonder whether the polite ask has community consensus behind it. [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 01:01, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
:Have you watched ''The Holdovers''? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:30, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
::I haven't, but I just read about the movie... boarding schools are (for the most part) very, very different places in 2023 than they were in 1970. Yet, the popular perception of class privilege and influence lives on in the zeitgeist. My school doesn't allow students to remain on campus over Christmas break. The ones for whom getting home would be prohibitive - usually just a few folks from overseas - generally stay with friends. We have a faculty member who helps coordinate such stays if students need help. My family hosted several of my son's friends, who were from China and Vietnam, on occasion.

::Okay, in spring 2020 most of our international students remained on campus, and I was one of many faculty who volunteered to chaperone / entertain them. That's a very different story, with very different cultural context, to what I read about The Holdovers. <smile>

==Atom==
Clicking '''Atom''' in the sidebar bar produces the message: "This XML file does not appear to have any style information associated with it. The document tree is shown below.", followed by pages of XML gibberish. Not widely useful. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:34, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
:The Atom link is only visible in Recent Changes, your Watchlist or the history of a specific page, and generates an RSS feed (in [[wikipedia:Atom (web standard)|Atom format]]) from entries in that list using XML which is (hypothetically) useful for other apps or websites to read. The main use case I’ve seen for that recently is a Discord bot which posts recent changes to a specific text channel, but generally speaking RSS has fallen from favour for most uses except podcasting. The Atom feed option is built in to MediaWiki so we can’t remove it by [[mediawiki:Sidebar|editing the sidebar menu]], but probably there’s an option to disable it in the config file if we really want to. (FYI I don’t get the error you mentioned, though I did get a different one trying to view the feed for my Watchlist that suggests we might have an out of date extension somewhere?) — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 12:29, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

==Spamagain==
Suddenly, the SEOs are back! [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:34, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
:Might be time to turn on new account approval? I run a plugin for that on my wiki, works pretty well. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 09:08, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
::May I ask the name of the plugin you use? I wanted to switch to Turnstyle captcha but that isn't in the stable release of Mediawiki yet --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 04:02, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
:I use [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:ConfirmAccount Confirm User Accounts]. I get a little spam (I just checked and there were three junk requests) but they doesn’t slow down the wiki or result in any vandalism. It has a “Spam” response which doesn’t send an email to the requester. The main downsides are that you have to respond to each request individually, and it does throw a couple of error messages, though nothing serious. (I’m currently running MediaWiki 1.40.1 and Confirm User Accounts 224079f.) It might not be the best available! -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 07:44, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
Twenty-five at once is getting back to the bad old days! [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:01, 1 August 2024 (UTC)<BR>
Forty-three so far today, almost all from the same source. I wonder what the "human not bot" filter does. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:25, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

It's getting to be a bit much, and for extra annoyance, when I'm logged in I can't see any but the most recent deletions. If I log out, I can see that the spammers I've just deleted still show, but I can't do anything with them. Fortunately, they don't seem to be active but they still show in Recent changes. Can AI-assisted bots now defeat any captcha? , [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:27, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

The Chicago insurance agent is getting really tiresome. It can do fifteen at once all day and night, apparently automated. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:13, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

:Any word on user account approval, [[User:Osiris|Osiris]]? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:37, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

The log in procedure seems to have changed and there's a pause in vandalism. Will it last? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:41, 14 November 2024 (UTC)...no, they're back. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:23, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

== Independent Wiki Federation? ==
I think we'd be a prime candidate for membership in the [https://indiewikifederation.org/ Independent Wiki Federation], which might be a nice way to attract some additional contributors and mods. They also have a very friendly Discord full of very knowledgeable folk who specialise in MediaWiki and might be able to help us solve our spam woes. What do we reckon? Doesn't cost us anything, and it would link us to a bigger community. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 07:29, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
:I don't see why not, but I suppose [[User:Osiris|Osiris]] would have to apply. (I wouldn't even know where to find the org-application channel.) [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:24, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
:: I’m happy to do the paperwork, as it were, but only if we have consensus here that we want to do it. In any case I’m on the Discord and I’ll ask for some advice about dealing with spam account creation. It’s really gotten out of hand. — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 21:30, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
:Indeed. (No opinion from [[User:Osiris|headquarters]].) [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:41, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

==More trolls==
Well, today must be the worst ever. Over a hundred.surely. (The counter doesn't even try to keep track.) [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:40, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
:The CAPTCHA isn’t doing anything to slow them down; I’ve finally got around to asking for suggestions from the IWF (as mentioned above; it got away from me.) I’ll report when I hear anything! -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:45, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

== New art process? ==
I’ve been keeping an eye out on Reddit and other social media for Discworld fan art to help provide pictures of various characters. I recently asked one if they’d like to join - and they did! Welcome [[User:HeiryProblems|HeiryProblems]]. They don’t have wiki experience so I’ve been helping them get started, but so far the art they’ve done is for characters who have existing art. Should we update the art? Add a gallery section for characters to showcase more than one bit of fan art? Not sure what the best step there is. (I’ve helped [[User:HeiryProblems|HeiryProblems]] with a gallery of works on their user page, so you can see some there.) -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:49, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

:I don't see any upgrades in illustrations there (too cartoonish}, Add a gallery section of illustrations maybe, or a fan art section? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:59, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

== Suggestions for stopping the SEO spambots ==
I asked at the IWF, and was recommended a few different MediaWiki extensions: [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:ConfirmEdit ConfirmEdit] (which we do have installed), [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:HoneyPot HoneyPot] (which we don't) and [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:QuestyCaptcha QuestyCaptcha] (now part of ComfirmEdit), which adds questions users have to answer when submitting an edit - something I think we have or had on this Wiki, for new users at least? One of the admins and founders of IWF specifically recommended AbuseFilter (which we do have installed) and supplied the list of keywords he uses which he says works very well to stop nearly all spam on his wikis. I see I have permission to add new filters to AbuseFilter, so I'm going to give this a try. The same person also recommended that as a last ditch option we could try deactivating open account creation completely for a week or so. The bots will find themselves unable to do their thing, and eventually take us off their lists of places to try. We don't get a lot of legit new users so this ought to be okay, and if anyone asks during that period we admins should be able to manually make them an account. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 23:42, 28 January 2025 (UTC)
:Oh, almost forgot - they also recommended the [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:UserMerge UserMerge] extension as a way to delete multiple users at once, basically by merging a bunch of spambot accounts into one, then deleting the one that's left. We already have this one installed, too, so worth a look? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 23:56, 28 January 2025 (UTC)
::Yes, we used Questy for a while and we had Merge for a while, which I enjoyed. I've thought before that we could handle manual approval of new users but I don't know how difficult it might be to set up. I've been wondering if any captcha can defeat AI-enhanced bots. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:27, 29 January 2025 (UTC)
:::CAPTCHA, no - but the new filter in AbuseFilter seems to be working, it's already caught and auto-blocked one spambot from the tail end of the burst we got around the time I added the rule. The real test will be the next big influx, but I feel optimistic that it'll catch and block those accounts while also preventing them from creating those pages. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 04:59, 29 January 2025 (UTC)

== Spambot update ==
Things are mostly looking good on this front!
* The new AbuseFilter rule is working, [[Special:AbuseLog|and only seems to be blocking spambots]]. So hopefully our spambot problem is solved!
* We still have a large number of spambot accounts that flew under our radar before this. They’re pretty easy to identify via the [[Special:ActiveUsers|list of active users]], though - they’re only in the list because the account was recently created, and they either have zero edits or just a user page. Worth looking for an extension that automatically deletes unused accounts after a period of time?
:: Update on this - there’s a maintenance script for this purpose: [[mw:Manual:RemoveUnusedAccounts.php|RemoveUnusedAccounts.php]]. Might be worth running, [[User:Osiris|Osiris]]? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 22:33, 6 February 2025 (UTC)
* The AbuseFilter has a block time of 3 days which is much better than my manual block time - I naively used 3 months or <strike>1 year</strike> indefinite! This has caused a problem in that some fan artists I’ve been encouraging to share their work here have been unable to create an account because their IP is blocked.
For now, I’m going to find and unblock the IPs which haven’t seen activity for a while; new spam accounts will be blocked by AbuseFilter. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 22:24, 6 February 2025 (UTC)
:Hallelujah! Most of them seem to have stopped trying, even. Only three in the last four days. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:16, 6 February 2025 (UTC)
::Yeah, once the first attempt is blocked you don’t get thirty more the same day! So we should see only small numbers when they do crop up. You’ll see some activity from today in the block log - that’s me going through and reducing the time for a bunch of old blocks I’d put in place, so they’ll expire soon (it was a bit quicker and easier to do that than manually unblock them). Hopefully that will help with new user signups which were being blocked. The rest ought to expire in the next few months, so hopefully as they disappear we’ll see those new user registration problems stop as well. Now we just need to start cleaning up all those bot user accounts... -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 00:29, 10 February 2025 (UTC)
:Now that you mention it, I used indefinite blocking (not knowing any better) back in the last major attack, before The Move, and it didn't seem to cause a problem. Another piece I don't understand; I'd have thought there were more IP addresses than that. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:50, 10 February 2025 (UTC)
::Well, there are a huge number of possible IP addresses, but owning a unique one with direct Internet access isn’t free. Regular Internet users get allocated an IP from a pool available to their ISP, and people running SEO spam might get their Internet access through the same companies. Long block times make this more likely - an IP address once used by bots has probably since been freed up and used by a legit service. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 03:54, 10 February 2025 (UTC)
:::I've been shamefully absent from this wiki for a bit, owing to a new daily morning show I've been doing and to a bit of depression since November. I'll try to get back to putzing around, but THANK YOU to all keeping the spam away. I'm not good at technical things, so I appreciate those who are.[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 23:02, 16 February 2025 (UTC)
:One got through today, though. Spam hidden in a link with only Korean? name. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:07, 18 February 2025 (UTC)
:Again today, spam only within a link. Every two weeks isn't bad, I suppose. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:33, 4 March 2025 (UTC)
::Thanks for the tip-off; I’ll have a look out for the next one and see if there are any obvious keywords I can add. We should think about what to do about the accounts that are created but don’t post anything, too. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 11:37, 12 March 2025 (UTC)
:Well, they're back. New style: a boilerplate user page followed by a long page of nonsense with no filter triggers. I guess the point is seo. Slowing the wiki quite a lot, too. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 17:23, 14 March 2025 (UTC)
::If you can capture the text from one before you delete it, that’d be very helpful! I’m sure we can find something in there that’s worth using in an update to the filter, especially combined with the absence of Discworld-appropriate keywords. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 07:58, 16 March 2025 (UTC)
:E-mailing rather than re-publishing it, but I doubt you can pick keywords. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:11, 17 March 2025 (UTC)
::Thanks for letting me know - thought you might have been hacked there for a second! It’s true that’s a difficult one, since it seems to be text stolen from an unrelated source. But some otherwise inoccuous words can go on the list when we consider the page also has to be missing the Discworld keywords in the other part of the filter. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 04:58, 17 March 2025 (UTC)
:Do you want another one? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:57, 18 March 2025 (UTC)
::If there's another representative one with a different theme, yeah! I think the changes I made have helped? Basically I'm adding keywords which while not indicative of spam links on their own, would be weird to see appear on a page on this wiki without some more Pratchett or Discworld related words as well. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 22:23, 23 March 2025 (UTC)
:Sure, but don't overdo it, it's working pretty well. I assume the restrictions only apply to a first post? E-mail away. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:49, 24 March 2025 (UTC)
::That's right - this filter only applies to a user's first edit, so a real person who probably makes a reasonable edit to an existing page before creating a user page, or creates a reasonable user page, will be fine. (The block also only lasts three days, and we can remove it if anyone gets caught by mistake.) I've added several more, but the formatting in that last one you sent seemed to be a failed template that I think was a rich source of potential options. It should stop a few more without going overboard! -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 10:47, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

== The Perils of Automatic Blocking ==
It says that blocking KendraGatlin also blocked me, but maybe administrators get away with it? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:28, 4 April 2025 (UTC)
:Hmmm...yes, this is the problem with blocking IP addresses, though I wouldn't have thought it'd be so prevalent! It's affected a few fan artists I've tried to recruit as well. But this is a good reason to keep the block times short! -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 14:58, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

==Another exception==
Hmm. User:JuliannHooks got by the filter although the page contained "my web-page". Probably because JuliannHooks is not a new user, having been blocked last year? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:31, 14 April 2025 (UTC)
Likewise, User:RicardoBiraban. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:36, 16 April 2025 (UTC)
:The filter focuses on first edits, so yeah - if they’d already made an edit and their account still existed... This is why we need to figure out the most efficient way to delete the bot accounts. The usual way is to merge them into a generic user account, but I haven’t figured out the best way to do that for large numbers yet. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 00:50, 19 April 2025 (UTC)
We used to have Merge, too. It was very convenient. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:58, 19 April 2025 (UTC)<BR>

I wonder how these people are getting through with banned phrases and no previous record. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 19:27, 16 June 2025 (UTC)
:The current spam detector is based only on first edit, could they be making an innocuous one first and then something else? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 11:10, 18 June 2025 (UTC)
That was the loophole for some, but the latest batch shows no previous Contributions. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:15, 18 June 2025 (UTC
==Slowdown?==
It's very time-consuming killing spammers with the wiki as slow as it is. I wonder what happened there. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:13, 24 September 2025 (UTC)<BR>
Service seems to back to full speed today. Much nicer. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:56, 28 September 2025 (UTC)<BR>
But then it's back to dead slow! ¿Que pasa? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:42, 28 September 2025 (UTC)

Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum

2025-09-28T02:56:32Z

Old Dickens: /* Slowdown? */

 '''This is a location to discuss non-content matters (what do we do with content disputes, vandalism, etc, what do we want to do with this wiki, and so on).'''

<div class="quotebox">This is the page for current discussions.

Archives
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 1]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 2]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 3]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 4]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 5]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 6]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 7]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 8]]
</div>

==AI content and fan project promotion==
So we have a new contributor (hello [[User:DugBride|DugBride]] if you’re reading this) who is adding AI-generated images to pages without images, and attributing them to their fan project, [https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3162903/oath-stories-discworld/page/1 a Discworld “re-skin” of the board game ''Oath'']. Which means the time has come for us to have a policy about AI-generated content. As a writer, actor, teacher, podcaster and more, every facet of my life is currently being made worse or at best more complicated by diffusion model images and large language model text, so I’m not a fan. But I recognise that’s not necessarily a majority opinion. So: what do we think? I don’t think we want AI text here at all, and at a bare minimum I want art to be clearly attributed to the model that created it. I would prefer hand-drawn fan art for character and item art, and I confess I am not a fan of some of the images uploaded so far, but again I recognise that’s a preference. But I am also not in favour of the wiki being filled up with images that promote a fan project, even if it is one I’m interested in. (This is why I have limited mention of my own podcast here, and started my own wiki for the detail I wanted to share.) What do you folks think? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 22:48, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
:I'm not a fan either, of course, and I would certainly ban AI-generated text, except how would you recognise it? Images are more difficult. What if the image were created in an old-fashioned (two years ago?) drawing program? What about photographs? I expect you know a lot more about the process than I; what if the AI is just used to smooth out an original drawing or color it, or...? Enforcement seems to be the hardest part. Other ideas, anyone? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:37, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
I’m not proposing we get too draconian about it, but having an official policy (or as close to official as we get) is enough to get us started. If folks want to ignore the rules and do it anyway, we can address that if necessary. I would just like us to be clear about whether we want images created by a diffusion model - which is to say, a generative AI like MidJourney or Dall-E which takes a text prompt and then creates an image based on analysis of training images (many used without permission) and associated descriptions. If someone makes art themselves and includes some kind of computer assistance in their process, I am not that fussed, just as I don’t mind if someone has a chat with ChatGPT to get inspiration for the fanfic they then go on to write. But the kind of thing created just by prompting an algorithm seems rather against the fandom spirit of L-Space, to me; fandom involves community, and that means if you need art for a project, you talk to other fans and find fan artists who are willing to help. An example policy might be something like: “This wiki does not permit the use of content created wholly or primarily by generative AI systems, including large language and diffusion models for text or art. All text added should be the work of the contributor; any art uploaded should be done so only with permission, and attributed to the creator.” -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 08:00, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

::Hi there thanks for the welcome and open discussion I was aware both issues you have raised were contentious which is why I messaged [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] direct before touching a page to get the go ahead to open this can of worms. I don't know how the back end of these things work so had to feel my way and have learned a fair bit in the past couple of days. Including where you talk about these things.<br> Here is where I am at...I would say if you don't like AI content then don't allow any AI content, if it is uploaded but then attributed to the model then I think you would be promoting it and will get a lot more. It has been surprisingly easy for me as a first time user to access and upload images seemingly without any gatekeeping, I am sure you already have safeguards against this but you may want to relook at those if you are hoping people will act in good faith. As for the project promotion, I agree it's a bit too much and if it's OK I will remove all references just leave the link in in my profile. Following the example set by [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]. I will of course not add any more pics but, it might be best if the current images stay while you make your decision, a picture tells a 1000 words even if those words are “we don't want these pictures” if then they are removed you may have to do it because although I can remove the page code, I have no idea how to delete uploaded files. Ironically I have been using both this reference and [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]’s podcast regularly without knowing they are connected for the last few months to get up to speed on Discworld, it took me all my life to read most of the books and so I have had to take shortcuts to work on the project references. I have a lot of respect for both sources and wouldn't want to cause any trouble. <br> If the images are unwelcome then I doubt I will have much to add as a contributor, there are a few unanswered questions when doing my research that I might be able to offer something on; Holy horns gesture? Guild Weathervanes? But you seem to have a lot covered and I have my own shed to be working in, maybe further down the road if you need some help administrating incoming imagery then I can help, although my field is Digital Imagery I am no artist and no expert in spotting deep fakes either. Finally I am thrilled you have both looked at my work in progress even if your not fans, I appreciate discerning feedback but happy to keep in my shed for now where I can choose how long Carrot has grown his hair. [[User:DugBride|DugBride]] 11:44, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
Hey DugBride - I might not be a fan of the art, or even ''Oath'', but your project is pretty amazing! And we do have a [[Fandom]] page where you could list it, at the very least. I want to thank you for engaging in this discussion in generous good faith, too. I’m not interested in having to police images really, but I think if we have a policy and find the right place to get it in front of users then that should be enough - I’m not expecting a torrent of diffusion model generated Discworld characters any time soon! — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:10, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
:I'd go along with Guybrush's policy statement, above, now, where does it go? I wouldn't like a big banner of "don'ts" on the front page, but if it's in "About", or Help:Editing nobody will read it. Help:Editing is already noted at the top of every editing page, so I guess we could say ignorance of the law is no excuse. I have to defer to Guybrush on interpretation of what's too much AI; I don't suppose it's possible to credit the source in an AI image when there might be dozens. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:44, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
::I think on image upload I had to tick a box marked "this is my own work" If it had said this is my own work and not AI generated I would have halted at that point. Apologies for the multi edits; still learning. --[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] ([[User talk:DugBride|talk]]) 12:33, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
This is a pretty good idea. What if we create a policies page (it could also include guidelines on annotations etc) and then link to that from the upload page? We can probably change the language on the upload page itself, too. And to be honest ownership is part of the problem; at the moment the ownership of generated images is murky at best, and it’s certainly unclear who owns copyright. So that does seem like the right place to put it. — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:10, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
On the subject of “how much AI is too much AI” I don’t think that’s a big problem; right now the thing we don’t want are wholly generated images - things created by diffusion models and similar tools, stuff like MidJourney or Dall-E, which create an image for you based on a text prompt. We don’t need to worry about folks using “AI” tools when making digital fan art (anything vaguely automated is being misleadingly lLabelled “AI” At the moment, even when many of those technologies already existed under other more sensible names). Perhaps we just need a clarifying clause on the “your own artwork” covering that it has to be yours, used with permission, allowed by copyright law and attributable to a person. I think it will also help to include in our art policy that as a fan project we want to showcase fan artists; you are welcome to use whatever you like to make art for yourself or or your own projects, but here we want to showcase human-drawn (etc) fan art. And as a longer term solution, perhaps I can do some call-outs in other fan spaces asking if folks have character and location fan art they’d be happy for us to use on the wiki for articles which lack images? — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:24, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
:I second all that, except that the '''Upload file''' page is for images and doesn't relate to annotations; also it's a "special page" and Osiris would have to modify it. '''Help:editing''' is already linked from editing pages. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:19, 14 December 2023 (UTC)<BR>
:[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] has removed his contributions. I'm of two minds on this; I have despised computer-generated pop music for many years now and I would prefer hand-made art or clever photographs, ''but'' we've begged for illustration for years and some of what we have isn't very good. I wish we could have more as useful as PetuliaGristle.jpg for example. Are these opposite and irreconcilable viewpoints? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:17, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
:: Missed one, just removed Detritus from the page this morning, like I said I can't do much about the images I uploaded as it won't let me delete the copy on the server. I sympathise with your issue, there are significant characters and locations without graphical representation. The AI works for me as I have to produce 250 images for a very small audience on zero budget, and I am more keen on design and mechanics than artistry. I don't think its as vital a part of your offering. Its possible that in the new year I will take [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]'s advise and reach out to some of the fan-artists to see if they want to help my project but only when I have something significant to demonstrate. I'll be happy to mention the gaps here that need filling, but it sounds like you have already been down that road. --[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] ([[User talk:DugBride|talk]]) 12:00, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
:::Hi, all, sorry I'm late to the discussion... boarding school at Hogswatch is a time sink. Anyway, y'all have said pretty much everything I would have, so all I'll do here is lend one more voice in support of Guybrush's suggestion, ''This wiki does not permit the use of content created wholly or primarily by generative AI systems, including large language and diffusion models for text or art. All text added should be the work of the contributor; any art uploaded should be done so only with permission, and attributed to the creator.'' I don't think we need to do much more in terms of advertising or enforcement, as long as we have something like this clearly stated somewhere. People don't necessarily read rules before editing. If we find someone using ChatGPT to make articles, we politely ask them to stop, and can point them to the statement if they wonder whether the polite ask has community consensus behind it. [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 01:01, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
:Have you watched ''The Holdovers''? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:30, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
::I haven't, but I just read about the movie... boarding schools are (for the most part) very, very different places in 2023 than they were in 1970. Yet, the popular perception of class privilege and influence lives on in the zeitgeist. My school doesn't allow students to remain on campus over Christmas break. The ones for whom getting home would be prohibitive - usually just a few folks from overseas - generally stay with friends. We have a faculty member who helps coordinate such stays if students need help. My family hosted several of my son's friends, who were from China and Vietnam, on occasion.

::Okay, in spring 2020 most of our international students remained on campus, and I was one of many faculty who volunteered to chaperone / entertain them. That's a very different story, with very different cultural context, to what I read about The Holdovers. <smile>

==Atom==
Clicking '''Atom''' in the sidebar bar produces the message: "This XML file does not appear to have any style information associated with it. The document tree is shown below.", followed by pages of XML gibberish. Not widely useful. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:34, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
:The Atom link is only visible in Recent Changes, your Watchlist or the history of a specific page, and generates an RSS feed (in [[wikipedia:Atom (web standard)|Atom format]]) from entries in that list using XML which is (hypothetically) useful for other apps or websites to read. The main use case I’ve seen for that recently is a Discord bot which posts recent changes to a specific text channel, but generally speaking RSS has fallen from favour for most uses except podcasting. The Atom feed option is built in to MediaWiki so we can’t remove it by [[mediawiki:Sidebar|editing the sidebar menu]], but probably there’s an option to disable it in the config file if we really want to. (FYI I don’t get the error you mentioned, though I did get a different one trying to view the feed for my Watchlist that suggests we might have an out of date extension somewhere?) — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 12:29, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

==Spamagain==
Suddenly, the SEOs are back! [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:34, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
:Might be time to turn on new account approval? I run a plugin for that on my wiki, works pretty well. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 09:08, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
::May I ask the name of the plugin you use? I wanted to switch to Turnstyle captcha but that isn't in the stable release of Mediawiki yet --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 04:02, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
:I use [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:ConfirmAccount Confirm User Accounts]. I get a little spam (I just checked and there were three junk requests) but they doesn’t slow down the wiki or result in any vandalism. It has a “Spam” response which doesn’t send an email to the requester. The main downsides are that you have to respond to each request individually, and it does throw a couple of error messages, though nothing serious. (I’m currently running MediaWiki 1.40.1 and Confirm User Accounts 224079f.) It might not be the best available! -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 07:44, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
Twenty-five at once is getting back to the bad old days! [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:01, 1 August 2024 (UTC)<BR>
Forty-three so far today, almost all from the same source. I wonder what the "human not bot" filter does. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:25, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

It's getting to be a bit much, and for extra annoyance, when I'm logged in I can't see any but the most recent deletions. If I log out, I can see that the spammers I've just deleted still show, but I can't do anything with them. Fortunately, they don't seem to be active but they still show in Recent changes. Can AI-assisted bots now defeat any captcha? , [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:27, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

The Chicago insurance agent is getting really tiresome. It can do fifteen at once all day and night, apparently automated. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:13, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

:Any word on user account approval, [[User:Osiris|Osiris]]? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:37, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

The log in procedure seems to have changed and there's a pause in vandalism. Will it last? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:41, 14 November 2024 (UTC)...no, they're back. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:23, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

== Independent Wiki Federation? ==
I think we'd be a prime candidate for membership in the [https://indiewikifederation.org/ Independent Wiki Federation], which might be a nice way to attract some additional contributors and mods. They also have a very friendly Discord full of very knowledgeable folk who specialise in MediaWiki and might be able to help us solve our spam woes. What do we reckon? Doesn't cost us anything, and it would link us to a bigger community. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 07:29, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
:I don't see why not, but I suppose [[User:Osiris|Osiris]] would have to apply. (I wouldn't even know where to find the org-application channel.) [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:24, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
:: I’m happy to do the paperwork, as it were, but only if we have consensus here that we want to do it. In any case I’m on the Discord and I’ll ask for some advice about dealing with spam account creation. It’s really gotten out of hand. — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 21:30, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
:Indeed. (No opinion from [[User:Osiris|headquarters]].) [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:41, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

==More trolls==
Well, today must be the worst ever. Over a hundred.surely. (The counter doesn't even try to keep track.) [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:40, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
:The CAPTCHA isn’t doing anything to slow them down; I’ve finally got around to asking for suggestions from the IWF (as mentioned above; it got away from me.) I’ll report when I hear anything! -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:45, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

== New art process? ==
I’ve been keeping an eye out on Reddit and other social media for Discworld fan art to help provide pictures of various characters. I recently asked one if they’d like to join - and they did! Welcome [[User:HeiryProblems|HeiryProblems]]. They don’t have wiki experience so I’ve been helping them get started, but so far the art they’ve done is for characters who have existing art. Should we update the art? Add a gallery section for characters to showcase more than one bit of fan art? Not sure what the best step there is. (I’ve helped [[User:HeiryProblems|HeiryProblems]] with a gallery of works on their user page, so you can see some there.) -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:49, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

:I don't see any upgrades in illustrations there (too cartoonish}, Add a gallery section of illustrations maybe, or a fan art section? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:59, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

== Suggestions for stopping the SEO spambots ==
I asked at the IWF, and was recommended a few different MediaWiki extensions: [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:ConfirmEdit ConfirmEdit] (which we do have installed), [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:HoneyPot HoneyPot] (which we don't) and [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:QuestyCaptcha QuestyCaptcha] (now part of ComfirmEdit), which adds questions users have to answer when submitting an edit - something I think we have or had on this Wiki, for new users at least? One of the admins and founders of IWF specifically recommended AbuseFilter (which we do have installed) and supplied the list of keywords he uses which he says works very well to stop nearly all spam on his wikis. I see I have permission to add new filters to AbuseFilter, so I'm going to give this a try. The same person also recommended that as a last ditch option we could try deactivating open account creation completely for a week or so. The bots will find themselves unable to do their thing, and eventually take us off their lists of places to try. We don't get a lot of legit new users so this ought to be okay, and if anyone asks during that period we admins should be able to manually make them an account. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 23:42, 28 January 2025 (UTC)
:Oh, almost forgot - they also recommended the [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:UserMerge UserMerge] extension as a way to delete multiple users at once, basically by merging a bunch of spambot accounts into one, then deleting the one that's left. We already have this one installed, too, so worth a look? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 23:56, 28 January 2025 (UTC)
::Yes, we used Questy for a while and we had Merge for a while, which I enjoyed. I've thought before that we could handle manual approval of new users but I don't know how difficult it might be to set up. I've been wondering if any captcha can defeat AI-enhanced bots. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:27, 29 January 2025 (UTC)
:::CAPTCHA, no - but the new filter in AbuseFilter seems to be working, it's already caught and auto-blocked one spambot from the tail end of the burst we got around the time I added the rule. The real test will be the next big influx, but I feel optimistic that it'll catch and block those accounts while also preventing them from creating those pages. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 04:59, 29 January 2025 (UTC)

== Spambot update ==
Things are mostly looking good on this front!
* The new AbuseFilter rule is working, [[Special:AbuseLog|and only seems to be blocking spambots]]. So hopefully our spambot problem is solved!
* We still have a large number of spambot accounts that flew under our radar before this. They’re pretty easy to identify via the [[Special:ActiveUsers|list of active users]], though - they’re only in the list because the account was recently created, and they either have zero edits or just a user page. Worth looking for an extension that automatically deletes unused accounts after a period of time?
:: Update on this - there’s a maintenance script for this purpose: [[mw:Manual:RemoveUnusedAccounts.php|RemoveUnusedAccounts.php]]. Might be worth running, [[User:Osiris|Osiris]]? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 22:33, 6 February 2025 (UTC)
* The AbuseFilter has a block time of 3 days which is much better than my manual block time - I naively used 3 months or <strike>1 year</strike> indefinite! This has caused a problem in that some fan artists I’ve been encouraging to share their work here have been unable to create an account because their IP is blocked.
For now, I’m going to find and unblock the IPs which haven’t seen activity for a while; new spam accounts will be blocked by AbuseFilter. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 22:24, 6 February 2025 (UTC)
:Hallelujah! Most of them seem to have stopped trying, even. Only three in the last four days. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:16, 6 February 2025 (UTC)
::Yeah, once the first attempt is blocked you don’t get thirty more the same day! So we should see only small numbers when they do crop up. You’ll see some activity from today in the block log - that’s me going through and reducing the time for a bunch of old blocks I’d put in place, so they’ll expire soon (it was a bit quicker and easier to do that than manually unblock them). Hopefully that will help with new user signups which were being blocked. The rest ought to expire in the next few months, so hopefully as they disappear we’ll see those new user registration problems stop as well. Now we just need to start cleaning up all those bot user accounts... -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 00:29, 10 February 2025 (UTC)
:Now that you mention it, I used indefinite blocking (not knowing any better) back in the last major attack, before The Move, and it didn't seem to cause a problem. Another piece I don't understand; I'd have thought there were more IP addresses than that. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:50, 10 February 2025 (UTC)
::Well, there are a huge number of possible IP addresses, but owning a unique one with direct Internet access isn’t free. Regular Internet users get allocated an IP from a pool available to their ISP, and people running SEO spam might get their Internet access through the same companies. Long block times make this more likely - an IP address once used by bots has probably since been freed up and used by a legit service. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 03:54, 10 February 2025 (UTC)
:::I've been shamefully absent from this wiki for a bit, owing to a new daily morning show I've been doing and to a bit of depression since November. I'll try to get back to putzing around, but THANK YOU to all keeping the spam away. I'm not good at technical things, so I appreciate those who are.[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 23:02, 16 February 2025 (UTC)
:One got through today, though. Spam hidden in a link with only Korean? name. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:07, 18 February 2025 (UTC)
:Again today, spam only within a link. Every two weeks isn't bad, I suppose. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:33, 4 March 2025 (UTC)
::Thanks for the tip-off; I’ll have a look out for the next one and see if there are any obvious keywords I can add. We should think about what to do about the accounts that are created but don’t post anything, too. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 11:37, 12 March 2025 (UTC)
:Well, they're back. New style: a boilerplate user page followed by a long page of nonsense with no filter triggers. I guess the point is seo. Slowing the wiki quite a lot, too. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 17:23, 14 March 2025 (UTC)
::If you can capture the text from one before you delete it, that’d be very helpful! I’m sure we can find something in there that’s worth using in an update to the filter, especially combined with the absence of Discworld-appropriate keywords. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 07:58, 16 March 2025 (UTC)
:E-mailing rather than re-publishing it, but I doubt you can pick keywords. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:11, 17 March 2025 (UTC)
::Thanks for letting me know - thought you might have been hacked there for a second! It’s true that’s a difficult one, since it seems to be text stolen from an unrelated source. But some otherwise inoccuous words can go on the list when we consider the page also has to be missing the Discworld keywords in the other part of the filter. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 04:58, 17 March 2025 (UTC)
:Do you want another one? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:57, 18 March 2025 (UTC)
::If there's another representative one with a different theme, yeah! I think the changes I made have helped? Basically I'm adding keywords which while not indicative of spam links on their own, would be weird to see appear on a page on this wiki without some more Pratchett or Discworld related words as well. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 22:23, 23 March 2025 (UTC)
:Sure, but don't overdo it, it's working pretty well. I assume the restrictions only apply to a first post? E-mail away. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:49, 24 March 2025 (UTC)
::That's right - this filter only applies to a user's first edit, so a real person who probably makes a reasonable edit to an existing page before creating a user page, or creates a reasonable user page, will be fine. (The block also only lasts three days, and we can remove it if anyone gets caught by mistake.) I've added several more, but the formatting in that last one you sent seemed to be a failed template that I think was a rich source of potential options. It should stop a few more without going overboard! -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 10:47, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

== The Perils of Automatic Blocking ==
It says that blocking KendraGatlin also blocked me, but maybe administrators get away with it? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:28, 4 April 2025 (UTC)
:Hmmm...yes, this is the problem with blocking IP addresses, though I wouldn't have thought it'd be so prevalent! It's affected a few fan artists I've tried to recruit as well. But this is a good reason to keep the block times short! -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 14:58, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

==Another exception==
Hmm. User:JuliannHooks got by the filter although the page contained "my web-page". Probably because JuliannHooks is not a new user, having been blocked last year? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:31, 14 April 2025 (UTC)
Likewise, User:RicardoBiraban. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:36, 16 April 2025 (UTC)
:The filter focuses on first edits, so yeah - if they’d already made an edit and their account still existed... This is why we need to figure out the most efficient way to delete the bot accounts. The usual way is to merge them into a generic user account, but I haven’t figured out the best way to do that for large numbers yet. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 00:50, 19 April 2025 (UTC)
We used to have Merge, too. It was very convenient. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:58, 19 April 2025 (UTC)<BR>

I wonder how these people are getting through with banned phrases and no previous record. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 19:27, 16 June 2025 (UTC)
:The current spam detector is based only on first edit, could they be making an innocuous one first and then something else? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 11:10, 18 June 2025 (UTC)
That was the loophole for some, but the latest batch shows no previous Contributions. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:15, 18 June 2025 (UTC
==Slowdown?==
It's very time-consuming killing spammers with the wiki as slow as it is. I wonder what happened there. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:13, 24 September 2025 (UTC)<BR>
Service seems to back to full speed today. Much nicer. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:56, 28 September 2025 (UTC)

Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum

2025-09-24T03:14:05Z

Old Dickens:

 '''This is a location to discuss non-content matters (what do we do with content disputes, vandalism, etc, what do we want to do with this wiki, and so on).'''

<div class="quotebox">This is the page for current discussions.

Archives
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 1]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 2]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 3]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 4]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 5]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 6]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 7]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 8]]
</div>

==AI content and fan project promotion==
So we have a new contributor (hello [[User:DugBride|DugBride]] if you’re reading this) who is adding AI-generated images to pages without images, and attributing them to their fan project, [https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3162903/oath-stories-discworld/page/1 a Discworld “re-skin” of the board game ''Oath'']. Which means the time has come for us to have a policy about AI-generated content. As a writer, actor, teacher, podcaster and more, every facet of my life is currently being made worse or at best more complicated by diffusion model images and large language model text, so I’m not a fan. But I recognise that’s not necessarily a majority opinion. So: what do we think? I don’t think we want AI text here at all, and at a bare minimum I want art to be clearly attributed to the model that created it. I would prefer hand-drawn fan art for character and item art, and I confess I am not a fan of some of the images uploaded so far, but again I recognise that’s a preference. But I am also not in favour of the wiki being filled up with images that promote a fan project, even if it is one I’m interested in. (This is why I have limited mention of my own podcast here, and started my own wiki for the detail I wanted to share.) What do you folks think? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 22:48, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
:I'm not a fan either, of course, and I would certainly ban AI-generated text, except how would you recognise it? Images are more difficult. What if the image were created in an old-fashioned (two years ago?) drawing program? What about photographs? I expect you know a lot more about the process than I; what if the AI is just used to smooth out an original drawing or color it, or...? Enforcement seems to be the hardest part. Other ideas, anyone? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:37, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
I’m not proposing we get too draconian about it, but having an official policy (or as close to official as we get) is enough to get us started. If folks want to ignore the rules and do it anyway, we can address that if necessary. I would just like us to be clear about whether we want images created by a diffusion model - which is to say, a generative AI like MidJourney or Dall-E which takes a text prompt and then creates an image based on analysis of training images (many used without permission) and associated descriptions. If someone makes art themselves and includes some kind of computer assistance in their process, I am not that fussed, just as I don’t mind if someone has a chat with ChatGPT to get inspiration for the fanfic they then go on to write. But the kind of thing created just by prompting an algorithm seems rather against the fandom spirit of L-Space, to me; fandom involves community, and that means if you need art for a project, you talk to other fans and find fan artists who are willing to help. An example policy might be something like: “This wiki does not permit the use of content created wholly or primarily by generative AI systems, including large language and diffusion models for text or art. All text added should be the work of the contributor; any art uploaded should be done so only with permission, and attributed to the creator.” -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 08:00, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

::Hi there thanks for the welcome and open discussion I was aware both issues you have raised were contentious which is why I messaged [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] direct before touching a page to get the go ahead to open this can of worms. I don't know how the back end of these things work so had to feel my way and have learned a fair bit in the past couple of days. Including where you talk about these things.<br> Here is where I am at...I would say if you don't like AI content then don't allow any AI content, if it is uploaded but then attributed to the model then I think you would be promoting it and will get a lot more. It has been surprisingly easy for me as a first time user to access and upload images seemingly without any gatekeeping, I am sure you already have safeguards against this but you may want to relook at those if you are hoping people will act in good faith. As for the project promotion, I agree it's a bit too much and if it's OK I will remove all references just leave the link in in my profile. Following the example set by [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]. I will of course not add any more pics but, it might be best if the current images stay while you make your decision, a picture tells a 1000 words even if those words are “we don't want these pictures” if then they are removed you may have to do it because although I can remove the page code, I have no idea how to delete uploaded files. Ironically I have been using both this reference and [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]’s podcast regularly without knowing they are connected for the last few months to get up to speed on Discworld, it took me all my life to read most of the books and so I have had to take shortcuts to work on the project references. I have a lot of respect for both sources and wouldn't want to cause any trouble. <br> If the images are unwelcome then I doubt I will have much to add as a contributor, there are a few unanswered questions when doing my research that I might be able to offer something on; Holy horns gesture? Guild Weathervanes? But you seem to have a lot covered and I have my own shed to be working in, maybe further down the road if you need some help administrating incoming imagery then I can help, although my field is Digital Imagery I am no artist and no expert in spotting deep fakes either. Finally I am thrilled you have both looked at my work in progress even if your not fans, I appreciate discerning feedback but happy to keep in my shed for now where I can choose how long Carrot has grown his hair. [[User:DugBride|DugBride]] 11:44, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
Hey DugBride - I might not be a fan of the art, or even ''Oath'', but your project is pretty amazing! And we do have a [[Fandom]] page where you could list it, at the very least. I want to thank you for engaging in this discussion in generous good faith, too. I’m not interested in having to police images really, but I think if we have a policy and find the right place to get it in front of users then that should be enough - I’m not expecting a torrent of diffusion model generated Discworld characters any time soon! — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:10, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
:I'd go along with Guybrush's policy statement, above, now, where does it go? I wouldn't like a big banner of "don'ts" on the front page, but if it's in "About", or Help:Editing nobody will read it. Help:Editing is already noted at the top of every editing page, so I guess we could say ignorance of the law is no excuse. I have to defer to Guybrush on interpretation of what's too much AI; I don't suppose it's possible to credit the source in an AI image when there might be dozens. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:44, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
::I think on image upload I had to tick a box marked "this is my own work" If it had said this is my own work and not AI generated I would have halted at that point. Apologies for the multi edits; still learning. --[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] ([[User talk:DugBride|talk]]) 12:33, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
This is a pretty good idea. What if we create a policies page (it could also include guidelines on annotations etc) and then link to that from the upload page? We can probably change the language on the upload page itself, too. And to be honest ownership is part of the problem; at the moment the ownership of generated images is murky at best, and it’s certainly unclear who owns copyright. So that does seem like the right place to put it. — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:10, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
On the subject of “how much AI is too much AI” I don’t think that’s a big problem; right now the thing we don’t want are wholly generated images - things created by diffusion models and similar tools, stuff like MidJourney or Dall-E, which create an image for you based on a text prompt. We don’t need to worry about folks using “AI” tools when making digital fan art (anything vaguely automated is being misleadingly lLabelled “AI” At the moment, even when many of those technologies already existed under other more sensible names). Perhaps we just need a clarifying clause on the “your own artwork” covering that it has to be yours, used with permission, allowed by copyright law and attributable to a person. I think it will also help to include in our art policy that as a fan project we want to showcase fan artists; you are welcome to use whatever you like to make art for yourself or or your own projects, but here we want to showcase human-drawn (etc) fan art. And as a longer term solution, perhaps I can do some call-outs in other fan spaces asking if folks have character and location fan art they’d be happy for us to use on the wiki for articles which lack images? — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:24, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
:I second all that, except that the '''Upload file''' page is for images and doesn't relate to annotations; also it's a "special page" and Osiris would have to modify it. '''Help:editing''' is already linked from editing pages. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:19, 14 December 2023 (UTC)<BR>
:[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] has removed his contributions. I'm of two minds on this; I have despised computer-generated pop music for many years now and I would prefer hand-made art or clever photographs, ''but'' we've begged for illustration for years and some of what we have isn't very good. I wish we could have more as useful as PetuliaGristle.jpg for example. Are these opposite and irreconcilable viewpoints? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:17, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
:: Missed one, just removed Detritus from the page this morning, like I said I can't do much about the images I uploaded as it won't let me delete the copy on the server. I sympathise with your issue, there are significant characters and locations without graphical representation. The AI works for me as I have to produce 250 images for a very small audience on zero budget, and I am more keen on design and mechanics than artistry. I don't think its as vital a part of your offering. Its possible that in the new year I will take [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]'s advise and reach out to some of the fan-artists to see if they want to help my project but only when I have something significant to demonstrate. I'll be happy to mention the gaps here that need filling, but it sounds like you have already been down that road. --[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] ([[User talk:DugBride|talk]]) 12:00, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
:::Hi, all, sorry I'm late to the discussion... boarding school at Hogswatch is a time sink. Anyway, y'all have said pretty much everything I would have, so all I'll do here is lend one more voice in support of Guybrush's suggestion, ''This wiki does not permit the use of content created wholly or primarily by generative AI systems, including large language and diffusion models for text or art. All text added should be the work of the contributor; any art uploaded should be done so only with permission, and attributed to the creator.'' I don't think we need to do much more in terms of advertising or enforcement, as long as we have something like this clearly stated somewhere. People don't necessarily read rules before editing. If we find someone using ChatGPT to make articles, we politely ask them to stop, and can point them to the statement if they wonder whether the polite ask has community consensus behind it. [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 01:01, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
:Have you watched ''The Holdovers''? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:30, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
::I haven't, but I just read about the movie... boarding schools are (for the most part) very, very different places in 2023 than they were in 1970. Yet, the popular perception of class privilege and influence lives on in the zeitgeist. My school doesn't allow students to remain on campus over Christmas break. The ones for whom getting home would be prohibitive - usually just a few folks from overseas - generally stay with friends. We have a faculty member who helps coordinate such stays if students need help. My family hosted several of my son's friends, who were from China and Vietnam, on occasion.

::Okay, in spring 2020 most of our international students remained on campus, and I was one of many faculty who volunteered to chaperone / entertain them. That's a very different story, with very different cultural context, to what I read about The Holdovers. <smile>

==Atom==
Clicking '''Atom''' in the sidebar bar produces the message: "This XML file does not appear to have any style information associated with it. The document tree is shown below.", followed by pages of XML gibberish. Not widely useful. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:34, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
:The Atom link is only visible in Recent Changes, your Watchlist or the history of a specific page, and generates an RSS feed (in [[wikipedia:Atom (web standard)|Atom format]]) from entries in that list using XML which is (hypothetically) useful for other apps or websites to read. The main use case I’ve seen for that recently is a Discord bot which posts recent changes to a specific text channel, but generally speaking RSS has fallen from favour for most uses except podcasting. The Atom feed option is built in to MediaWiki so we can’t remove it by [[mediawiki:Sidebar|editing the sidebar menu]], but probably there’s an option to disable it in the config file if we really want to. (FYI I don’t get the error you mentioned, though I did get a different one trying to view the feed for my Watchlist that suggests we might have an out of date extension somewhere?) — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 12:29, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

==Spamagain==
Suddenly, the SEOs are back! [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:34, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
:Might be time to turn on new account approval? I run a plugin for that on my wiki, works pretty well. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 09:08, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
::May I ask the name of the plugin you use? I wanted to switch to Turnstyle captcha but that isn't in the stable release of Mediawiki yet --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 04:02, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
:I use [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:ConfirmAccount Confirm User Accounts]. I get a little spam (I just checked and there were three junk requests) but they doesn’t slow down the wiki or result in any vandalism. It has a “Spam” response which doesn’t send an email to the requester. The main downsides are that you have to respond to each request individually, and it does throw a couple of error messages, though nothing serious. (I’m currently running MediaWiki 1.40.1 and Confirm User Accounts 224079f.) It might not be the best available! -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 07:44, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
Twenty-five at once is getting back to the bad old days! [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:01, 1 August 2024 (UTC)<BR>
Forty-three so far today, almost all from the same source. I wonder what the "human not bot" filter does. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:25, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

It's getting to be a bit much, and for extra annoyance, when I'm logged in I can't see any but the most recent deletions. If I log out, I can see that the spammers I've just deleted still show, but I can't do anything with them. Fortunately, they don't seem to be active but they still show in Recent changes. Can AI-assisted bots now defeat any captcha? , [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:27, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

The Chicago insurance agent is getting really tiresome. It can do fifteen at once all day and night, apparently automated. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:13, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

:Any word on user account approval, [[User:Osiris|Osiris]]? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:37, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

The log in procedure seems to have changed and there's a pause in vandalism. Will it last? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:41, 14 November 2024 (UTC)...no, they're back. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:23, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

== Independent Wiki Federation? ==
I think we'd be a prime candidate for membership in the [https://indiewikifederation.org/ Independent Wiki Federation], which might be a nice way to attract some additional contributors and mods. They also have a very friendly Discord full of very knowledgeable folk who specialise in MediaWiki and might be able to help us solve our spam woes. What do we reckon? Doesn't cost us anything, and it would link us to a bigger community. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 07:29, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
:I don't see why not, but I suppose [[User:Osiris|Osiris]] would have to apply. (I wouldn't even know where to find the org-application channel.) [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:24, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
:: I’m happy to do the paperwork, as it were, but only if we have consensus here that we want to do it. In any case I’m on the Discord and I’ll ask for some advice about dealing with spam account creation. It’s really gotten out of hand. — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 21:30, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
:Indeed. (No opinion from [[User:Osiris|headquarters]].) [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:41, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

==More trolls==
Well, today must be the worst ever. Over a hundred.surely. (The counter doesn't even try to keep track.) [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:40, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
:The CAPTCHA isn’t doing anything to slow them down; I’ve finally got around to asking for suggestions from the IWF (as mentioned above; it got away from me.) I’ll report when I hear anything! -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:45, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

== New art process? ==
I’ve been keeping an eye out on Reddit and other social media for Discworld fan art to help provide pictures of various characters. I recently asked one if they’d like to join - and they did! Welcome [[User:HeiryProblems|HeiryProblems]]. They don’t have wiki experience so I’ve been helping them get started, but so far the art they’ve done is for characters who have existing art. Should we update the art? Add a gallery section for characters to showcase more than one bit of fan art? Not sure what the best step there is. (I’ve helped [[User:HeiryProblems|HeiryProblems]] with a gallery of works on their user page, so you can see some there.) -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:49, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

:I don't see any upgrades in illustrations there (too cartoonish}, Add a gallery section of illustrations maybe, or a fan art section? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:59, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

== Suggestions for stopping the SEO spambots ==
I asked at the IWF, and was recommended a few different MediaWiki extensions: [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:ConfirmEdit ConfirmEdit] (which we do have installed), [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:HoneyPot HoneyPot] (which we don't) and [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:QuestyCaptcha QuestyCaptcha] (now part of ComfirmEdit), which adds questions users have to answer when submitting an edit - something I think we have or had on this Wiki, for new users at least? One of the admins and founders of IWF specifically recommended AbuseFilter (which we do have installed) and supplied the list of keywords he uses which he says works very well to stop nearly all spam on his wikis. I see I have permission to add new filters to AbuseFilter, so I'm going to give this a try. The same person also recommended that as a last ditch option we could try deactivating open account creation completely for a week or so. The bots will find themselves unable to do their thing, and eventually take us off their lists of places to try. We don't get a lot of legit new users so this ought to be okay, and if anyone asks during that period we admins should be able to manually make them an account. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 23:42, 28 January 2025 (UTC)
:Oh, almost forgot - they also recommended the [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:UserMerge UserMerge] extension as a way to delete multiple users at once, basically by merging a bunch of spambot accounts into one, then deleting the one that's left. We already have this one installed, too, so worth a look? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 23:56, 28 January 2025 (UTC)
::Yes, we used Questy for a while and we had Merge for a while, which I enjoyed. I've thought before that we could handle manual approval of new users but I don't know how difficult it might be to set up. I've been wondering if any captcha can defeat AI-enhanced bots. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:27, 29 January 2025 (UTC)
:::CAPTCHA, no - but the new filter in AbuseFilter seems to be working, it's already caught and auto-blocked one spambot from the tail end of the burst we got around the time I added the rule. The real test will be the next big influx, but I feel optimistic that it'll catch and block those accounts while also preventing them from creating those pages. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 04:59, 29 January 2025 (UTC)

== Spambot update ==
Things are mostly looking good on this front!
* The new AbuseFilter rule is working, [[Special:AbuseLog|and only seems to be blocking spambots]]. So hopefully our spambot problem is solved!
* We still have a large number of spambot accounts that flew under our radar before this. They’re pretty easy to identify via the [[Special:ActiveUsers|list of active users]], though - they’re only in the list because the account was recently created, and they either have zero edits or just a user page. Worth looking for an extension that automatically deletes unused accounts after a period of time?
:: Update on this - there’s a maintenance script for this purpose: [[mw:Manual:RemoveUnusedAccounts.php|RemoveUnusedAccounts.php]]. Might be worth running, [[User:Osiris|Osiris]]? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 22:33, 6 February 2025 (UTC)
* The AbuseFilter has a block time of 3 days which is much better than my manual block time - I naively used 3 months or <strike>1 year</strike> indefinite! This has caused a problem in that some fan artists I’ve been encouraging to share their work here have been unable to create an account because their IP is blocked.
For now, I’m going to find and unblock the IPs which haven’t seen activity for a while; new spam accounts will be blocked by AbuseFilter. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 22:24, 6 February 2025 (UTC)
:Hallelujah! Most of them seem to have stopped trying, even. Only three in the last four days. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:16, 6 February 2025 (UTC)
::Yeah, once the first attempt is blocked you don’t get thirty more the same day! So we should see only small numbers when they do crop up. You’ll see some activity from today in the block log - that’s me going through and reducing the time for a bunch of old blocks I’d put in place, so they’ll expire soon (it was a bit quicker and easier to do that than manually unblock them). Hopefully that will help with new user signups which were being blocked. The rest ought to expire in the next few months, so hopefully as they disappear we’ll see those new user registration problems stop as well. Now we just need to start cleaning up all those bot user accounts... -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 00:29, 10 February 2025 (UTC)
:Now that you mention it, I used indefinite blocking (not knowing any better) back in the last major attack, before The Move, and it didn't seem to cause a problem. Another piece I don't understand; I'd have thought there were more IP addresses than that. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:50, 10 February 2025 (UTC)
::Well, there are a huge number of possible IP addresses, but owning a unique one with direct Internet access isn’t free. Regular Internet users get allocated an IP from a pool available to their ISP, and people running SEO spam might get their Internet access through the same companies. Long block times make this more likely - an IP address once used by bots has probably since been freed up and used by a legit service. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 03:54, 10 February 2025 (UTC)
:::I've been shamefully absent from this wiki for a bit, owing to a new daily morning show I've been doing and to a bit of depression since November. I'll try to get back to putzing around, but THANK YOU to all keeping the spam away. I'm not good at technical things, so I appreciate those who are.[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 23:02, 16 February 2025 (UTC)
:One got through today, though. Spam hidden in a link with only Korean? name. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:07, 18 February 2025 (UTC)
:Again today, spam only within a link. Every two weeks isn't bad, I suppose. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:33, 4 March 2025 (UTC)
::Thanks for the tip-off; I’ll have a look out for the next one and see if there are any obvious keywords I can add. We should think about what to do about the accounts that are created but don’t post anything, too. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 11:37, 12 March 2025 (UTC)
:Well, they're back. New style: a boilerplate user page followed by a long page of nonsense with no filter triggers. I guess the point is seo. Slowing the wiki quite a lot, too. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 17:23, 14 March 2025 (UTC)
::If you can capture the text from one before you delete it, that’d be very helpful! I’m sure we can find something in there that’s worth using in an update to the filter, especially combined with the absence of Discworld-appropriate keywords. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 07:58, 16 March 2025 (UTC)
:E-mailing rather than re-publishing it, but I doubt you can pick keywords. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:11, 17 March 2025 (UTC)
::Thanks for letting me know - thought you might have been hacked there for a second! It’s true that’s a difficult one, since it seems to be text stolen from an unrelated source. But some otherwise inoccuous words can go on the list when we consider the page also has to be missing the Discworld keywords in the other part of the filter. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 04:58, 17 March 2025 (UTC)
:Do you want another one? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:57, 18 March 2025 (UTC)
::If there's another representative one with a different theme, yeah! I think the changes I made have helped? Basically I'm adding keywords which while not indicative of spam links on their own, would be weird to see appear on a page on this wiki without some more Pratchett or Discworld related words as well. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 22:23, 23 March 2025 (UTC)
:Sure, but don't overdo it, it's working pretty well. I assume the restrictions only apply to a first post? E-mail away. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:49, 24 March 2025 (UTC)
::That's right - this filter only applies to a user's first edit, so a real person who probably makes a reasonable edit to an existing page before creating a user page, or creates a reasonable user page, will be fine. (The block also only lasts three days, and we can remove it if anyone gets caught by mistake.) I've added several more, but the formatting in that last one you sent seemed to be a failed template that I think was a rich source of potential options. It should stop a few more without going overboard! -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 10:47, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

== The Perils of Automatic Blocking ==
It says that blocking KendraGatlin also blocked me, but maybe administrators get away with it? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:28, 4 April 2025 (UTC)
:Hmmm...yes, this is the problem with blocking IP addresses, though I wouldn't have thought it'd be so prevalent! It's affected a few fan artists I've tried to recruit as well. But this is a good reason to keep the block times short! -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 14:58, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

==Another exception==
Hmm. User:JuliannHooks got by the filter although the page contained "my web-page". Probably because JuliannHooks is not a new user, having been blocked last year? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:31, 14 April 2025 (UTC)
Likewise, User:RicardoBiraban. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:36, 16 April 2025 (UTC)
:The filter focuses on first edits, so yeah - if they’d already made an edit and their account still existed... This is why we need to figure out the most efficient way to delete the bot accounts. The usual way is to merge them into a generic user account, but I haven’t figured out the best way to do that for large numbers yet. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 00:50, 19 April 2025 (UTC)
We used to have Merge, too. It was very convenient. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:58, 19 April 2025 (UTC)<BR>

I wonder how these people are getting through with banned phrases and no previous record. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 19:27, 16 June 2025 (UTC)
:The current spam detector is based only on first edit, could they be making an innocuous one first and then something else? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 11:10, 18 June 2025 (UTC)
That was the loophole for some, but the latest batch shows no previous Contributions. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:15, 18 June 2025 (UTC
==Slowdown?==
It's very time-consuming killing spammers with the wiki as slow as it is. I wonder what happened there. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:13, 24 September 2025 (UTC)

Vlad de Magpyr

2025-07-20T04:16:53Z

Old Dickens: de-stub

Vlad de Magpyr is the son of [[Count de Magpyr]]. His name is apt when you consider that [[Roundworld]]'s Vlad the Impaler's name in Romanian is Vlad Dracul, which can be interpreted in two ways, the first translation from Romanian would be "Dragon", but it sometimes also means "Devil". Vlad was known as Vlad Dracula, the added "a" meaning "son of", so essentially, throughout his life, he was known as the "son of the Devil".

So, all in all, not a bad way to connect Vlad de Magpyr with an even darker figure.

In {{CJ}} Vlad is seen as a clever, powerful vampire who develops an irresistible yearn to understand [[Agnes Nitt]]. He doesn't understand the [[Perdita X|Perdita]] inside her, and so watches her closely.

[[category:Discworld characters|Magpyr, Vlad]]
[[Category:Undead characters|Magpyr, Vlad]]
[[de:Vlad de Elstyr]]

User:Old Dickens

2025-07-05T05:35:25Z

Old Dickens:

User:Old Dickens

2025-07-04T04:48:54Z

Old Dickens: /* Bridge */

==Verse==
'''W'''hat if the stories were true? What if there really were [[Vampires]] and [[Werewolves]] and [[Wizards]] and [[Witches]] who really could turn you into a toad, or make you think they had? Suppose [[Samuel Vimes|Nick]] and [[Sybil Ramkin|Nora]] {{wp|Nick_and_Nora_Charles|Charles}} were the most powerful couple in the country...

There is a story that the world is a disc borne on the backs of [[World Elephant|four elephants]] which stand on the carapace of an enormous [[Great A'Tuin|turtle]]. In one corner of the Multiverse (the one farthest from ''Reality'') this, too, is true. This is where the [[Narrative Causality|story]] creates the history and a one-in-a-million chance turns up nine times out of ten and the ocean falls into space around the [[rim]] without depleting itself. On the [[Discworld (world)|Discworld]], "what if?" must be answered, the stories lived, the myth made real.

Tales from this remote universe arrived regularly via [[Inspiration Particles|inspiration particles]] intercepting the particularly receptive and talented brain of [[Terry Pratchett|Sir Terry Pratchett, OBE]]. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to sort, file and illuminate the elements of these chronicles in this little corner of the vast library of [[L-space]]. Just don't forget your ball of string.

==Bridge==
As happy a Fourth as possible to our American friends, with DOGE looming over you. This too shall pass.

'''С'''лава Україні!

==Chorus==
'''I''' sometimes sit and laugh giddily at the mere existence of some Pratchett characters (Carrot Ironfoundersson, say) and the reality he creates out of the absurd stereotype. This is often toward the end of the bottle of wine, but still, it suggests how he's different from other writers I have followed. There are now more than twelve hundred [[:Category:Discworld characters|Discworld characters]] described here, and that's not all.

.
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Made a sysop for the many good contributions --[[User:Sanity|Sanity]] 01:34, 19 August 2006 (CEST)

Talk:Oswald (Moving Pictures)

2025-06-27T04:27:30Z

Old Dickens: speculation?

This annotation made no sense to me, so I removed it - rather then deleting it completely though, i'll just put it in here for safe keeping.

And, of course, in passing to what the Bonzo Dog Doodah Band referred to as ''A wonderful performer and always here... J.Arthur Rank on Gong!"''

[[User:JaffaCakeLover|JaffaCakeLover]] 13:50, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Ah. Elucidation.

Apologies, I didn't fill in all the necessary blanks...
At the beginning and end of every film released by the British Rank Organisation's studios, the studio icon (like MGM's roaring lion or paramount's mountain and stars)was a giant, muscular, man in a loin-cloth artistically striking a large Chinese gong with a very big hammer. (parodied by Pratchett in the climactic scenes of {{MP}}, where the troll Detritus strikes the gong with the hammer to awaken "Oswald").

J.Arthur Rank was the mogul who founded and ran the studio, a Britsh answer to Goldwyn and Meyer.

The Bonzo Dog Doodah Band were a group of skilled musical parodists, led by Neil Innes and Vivian Stanshall, who had a career mercilessly sending up musical styles and conventions. They worked with the Beatles in the film "Magical Mystery Tour", and Neil Innes was widely regarded as the seventh member of the Monty Python team - providing original music and occassional sketches.

One of their more subtly funny numbers was the "[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcrUuCDFLOQ|The Intro and the Outro]", a merciless send-up of the musical convention that says the lead singer, at some point during the gig, has to namecheck and thank all the members of the band on stage with him. This is taken to absurdist levels - ''looking very relaxed, Adolf Hitler on vibes'', and ''digging General de Gaulle on accordion''

The track ends on the line ''A wonderful performer and always here... J.Arthur Rank on Gong!"''

(apropos of nothing, "Rank" is also a word used to signify "outstandingly awful", as many Rank films were<sup>1</sup>, and in Cockney rhyming slang, a "J.Arthur (Rank)" is an act of self-abuse...)

hoping this helps!--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 23:37, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Apologies, I didn't fill in all the necessary blanks...

<sup>1</sup> A pretty tough critic; check the {{wp|Rank Organisation#Select filmography|list}} --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:38, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

===The other Oswald===
It would appear that there is no page for the other character of this name, Miss Level's ghostly housekeeper from A Hat Full of Sky.
:Amazing (again)! Every so often one of these big obvious holes shows up after going unnoticed for years. Oswald isn't even listed in {{HFOS}} although he does show up in [[Ghosts]], incorrectly linked to here. I'll fix those two, for a start. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:34, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
:...but apparently I didn't (pause for flagellation). This is a right cock-up: the guardian of Holy Wood has no name, he was only said to resemble someone's Uncle Osbert or Oswald or Osric. Oswald is the name of the ondageist from {{HFOS}}, who still has no page, but then what should this article be titled? I'll try to work it out before another year. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:30, 14 March 2015 (UTC)<BR>
:Disambiguation page, I guess. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 19:22, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

== ==
Is [[user:Sharlee|Sharlee]]'s fanfic in the final paragraph really useful? I have no particular argument, but it seems very speculative. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:26, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum

2025-06-18T16:16:18Z

Old Dickens: /* Another exception */

Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum

2025-06-16T19:27:59Z

Old Dickens: /* Another exception */

 '''This is a location to discuss non-content matters (what do we do with content disputes, vandalism, etc, what do we want to do with this wiki, and so on).'''

<div class="quotebox">This is the page for current discussions.

Archives
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 1]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 2]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 3]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 4]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 5]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 6]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 7]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 8]]
</div>

==AI content and fan project promotion==
So we have a new contributor (hello [[User:DugBride|DugBride]] if you’re reading this) who is adding AI-generated images to pages without images, and attributing them to their fan project, [https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3162903/oath-stories-discworld/page/1 a Discworld “re-skin” of the board game ''Oath'']. Which means the time has come for us to have a policy about AI-generated content. As a writer, actor, teacher, podcaster and more, every facet of my life is currently being made worse or at best more complicated by diffusion model images and large language model text, so I’m not a fan. But I recognise that’s not necessarily a majority opinion. So: what do we think? I don’t think we want AI text here at all, and at a bare minimum I want art to be clearly attributed to the model that created it. I would prefer hand-drawn fan art for character and item art, and I confess I am not a fan of some of the images uploaded so far, but again I recognise that’s a preference. But I am also not in favour of the wiki being filled up with images that promote a fan project, even if it is one I’m interested in. (This is why I have limited mention of my own podcast here, and started my own wiki for the detail I wanted to share.) What do you folks think? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 22:48, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
:I'm not a fan either, of course, and I would certainly ban AI-generated text, except how would you recognise it? Images are more difficult. What if the image were created in an old-fashioned (two years ago?) drawing program? What about photographs? I expect you know a lot more about the process than I; what if the AI is just used to smooth out an original drawing or color it, or...? Enforcement seems to be the hardest part. Other ideas, anyone? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:37, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
I’m not proposing we get too draconian about it, but having an official policy (or as close to official as we get) is enough to get us started. If folks want to ignore the rules and do it anyway, we can address that if necessary. I would just like us to be clear about whether we want images created by a diffusion model - which is to say, a generative AI like MidJourney or Dall-E which takes a text prompt and then creates an image based on analysis of training images (many used without permission) and associated descriptions. If someone makes art themselves and includes some kind of computer assistance in their process, I am not that fussed, just as I don’t mind if someone has a chat with ChatGPT to get inspiration for the fanfic they then go on to write. But the kind of thing created just by prompting an algorithm seems rather against the fandom spirit of L-Space, to me; fandom involves community, and that means if you need art for a project, you talk to other fans and find fan artists who are willing to help. An example policy might be something like: “This wiki does not permit the use of content created wholly or primarily by generative AI systems, including large language and diffusion models for text or art. All text added should be the work of the contributor; any art uploaded should be done so only with permission, and attributed to the creator.” -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 08:00, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

::Hi there thanks for the welcome and open discussion I was aware both issues you have raised were contentious which is why I messaged [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] direct before touching a page to get the go ahead to open this can of worms. I don't know how the back end of these things work so had to feel my way and have learned a fair bit in the past couple of days. Including where you talk about these things.<br> Here is where I am at...I would say if you don't like AI content then don't allow any AI content, if it is uploaded but then attributed to the model then I think you would be promoting it and will get a lot more. It has been surprisingly easy for me as a first time user to access and upload images seemingly without any gatekeeping, I am sure you already have safeguards against this but you may want to relook at those if you are hoping people will act in good faith. As for the project promotion, I agree it's a bit too much and if it's OK I will remove all references just leave the link in in my profile. Following the example set by [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]. I will of course not add any more pics but, it might be best if the current images stay while you make your decision, a picture tells a 1000 words even if those words are “we don't want these pictures” if then they are removed you may have to do it because although I can remove the page code, I have no idea how to delete uploaded files. Ironically I have been using both this reference and [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]’s podcast regularly without knowing they are connected for the last few months to get up to speed on Discworld, it took me all my life to read most of the books and so I have had to take shortcuts to work on the project references. I have a lot of respect for both sources and wouldn't want to cause any trouble. <br> If the images are unwelcome then I doubt I will have much to add as a contributor, there are a few unanswered questions when doing my research that I might be able to offer something on; Holy horns gesture? Guild Weathervanes? But you seem to have a lot covered and I have my own shed to be working in, maybe further down the road if you need some help administrating incoming imagery then I can help, although my field is Digital Imagery I am no artist and no expert in spotting deep fakes either. Finally I am thrilled you have both looked at my work in progress even if your not fans, I appreciate discerning feedback but happy to keep in my shed for now where I can choose how long Carrot has grown his hair. [[User:DugBride|DugBride]] 11:44, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
Hey DugBride - I might not be a fan of the art, or even ''Oath'', but your project is pretty amazing! And we do have a [[Fandom]] page where you could list it, at the very least. I want to thank you for engaging in this discussion in generous good faith, too. I’m not interested in having to police images really, but I think if we have a policy and find the right place to get it in front of users then that should be enough - I’m not expecting a torrent of diffusion model generated Discworld characters any time soon! — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:10, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
:I'd go along with Guybrush's policy statement, above, now, where does it go? I wouldn't like a big banner of "don'ts" on the front page, but if it's in "About", or Help:Editing nobody will read it. Help:Editing is already noted at the top of every editing page, so I guess we could say ignorance of the law is no excuse. I have to defer to Guybrush on interpretation of what's too much AI; I don't suppose it's possible to credit the source in an AI image when there might be dozens. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:44, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
::I think on image upload I had to tick a box marked "this is my own work" If it had said this is my own work and not AI generated I would have halted at that point. Apologies for the multi edits; still learning. --[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] ([[User talk:DugBride|talk]]) 12:33, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
This is a pretty good idea. What if we create a policies page (it could also include guidelines on annotations etc) and then link to that from the upload page? We can probably change the language on the upload page itself, too. And to be honest ownership is part of the problem; at the moment the ownership of generated images is murky at best, and it’s certainly unclear who owns copyright. So that does seem like the right place to put it. — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:10, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
On the subject of “how much AI is too much AI” I don’t think that’s a big problem; right now the thing we don’t want are wholly generated images - things created by diffusion models and similar tools, stuff like MidJourney or Dall-E, which create an image for you based on a text prompt. We don’t need to worry about folks using “AI” tools when making digital fan art (anything vaguely automated is being misleadingly lLabelled “AI” At the moment, even when many of those technologies already existed under other more sensible names). Perhaps we just need a clarifying clause on the “your own artwork” covering that it has to be yours, used with permission, allowed by copyright law and attributable to a person. I think it will also help to include in our art policy that as a fan project we want to showcase fan artists; you are welcome to use whatever you like to make art for yourself or or your own projects, but here we want to showcase human-drawn (etc) fan art. And as a longer term solution, perhaps I can do some call-outs in other fan spaces asking if folks have character and location fan art they’d be happy for us to use on the wiki for articles which lack images? — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:24, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
:I second all that, except that the '''Upload file''' page is for images and doesn't relate to annotations; also it's a "special page" and Osiris would have to modify it. '''Help:editing''' is already linked from editing pages. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:19, 14 December 2023 (UTC)<BR>
:[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] has removed his contributions. I'm of two minds on this; I have despised computer-generated pop music for many years now and I would prefer hand-made art or clever photographs, ''but'' we've begged for illustration for years and some of what we have isn't very good. I wish we could have more as useful as PetuliaGristle.jpg for example. Are these opposite and irreconcilable viewpoints? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:17, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
:: Missed one, just removed Detritus from the page this morning, like I said I can't do much about the images I uploaded as it won't let me delete the copy on the server. I sympathise with your issue, there are significant characters and locations without graphical representation. The AI works for me as I have to produce 250 images for a very small audience on zero budget, and I am more keen on design and mechanics than artistry. I don't think its as vital a part of your offering. Its possible that in the new year I will take [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]'s advise and reach out to some of the fan-artists to see if they want to help my project but only when I have something significant to demonstrate. I'll be happy to mention the gaps here that need filling, but it sounds like you have already been down that road. --[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] ([[User talk:DugBride|talk]]) 12:00, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
:::Hi, all, sorry I'm late to the discussion... boarding school at Hogswatch is a time sink. Anyway, y'all have said pretty much everything I would have, so all I'll do here is lend one more voice in support of Guybrush's suggestion, ''This wiki does not permit the use of content created wholly or primarily by generative AI systems, including large language and diffusion models for text or art. All text added should be the work of the contributor; any art uploaded should be done so only with permission, and attributed to the creator.'' I don't think we need to do much more in terms of advertising or enforcement, as long as we have something like this clearly stated somewhere. People don't necessarily read rules before editing. If we find someone using ChatGPT to make articles, we politely ask them to stop, and can point them to the statement if they wonder whether the polite ask has community consensus behind it. [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 01:01, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
:Have you watched ''The Holdovers''? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:30, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
::I haven't, but I just read about the movie... boarding schools are (for the most part) very, very different places in 2023 than they were in 1970. Yet, the popular perception of class privilege and influence lives on in the zeitgeist. My school doesn't allow students to remain on campus over Christmas break. The ones for whom getting home would be prohibitive - usually just a few folks from overseas - generally stay with friends. We have a faculty member who helps coordinate such stays if students need help. My family hosted several of my son's friends, who were from China and Vietnam, on occasion.

::Okay, in spring 2020 most of our international students remained on campus, and I was one of many faculty who volunteered to chaperone / entertain them. That's a very different story, with very different cultural context, to what I read about The Holdovers. <smile>

==Atom==
Clicking '''Atom''' in the sidebar bar produces the message: "This XML file does not appear to have any style information associated with it. The document tree is shown below.", followed by pages of XML gibberish. Not widely useful. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:34, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
:The Atom link is only visible in Recent Changes, your Watchlist or the history of a specific page, and generates an RSS feed (in [[wikipedia:Atom (web standard)|Atom format]]) from entries in that list using XML which is (hypothetically) useful for other apps or websites to read. The main use case I’ve seen for that recently is a Discord bot which posts recent changes to a specific text channel, but generally speaking RSS has fallen from favour for most uses except podcasting. The Atom feed option is built in to MediaWiki so we can’t remove it by [[mediawiki:Sidebar|editing the sidebar menu]], but probably there’s an option to disable it in the config file if we really want to. (FYI I don’t get the error you mentioned, though I did get a different one trying to view the feed for my Watchlist that suggests we might have an out of date extension somewhere?) — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 12:29, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

==Spamagain==
Suddenly, the SEOs are back! [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:34, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
:Might be time to turn on new account approval? I run a plugin for that on my wiki, works pretty well. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 09:08, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
::May I ask the name of the plugin you use? I wanted to switch to Turnstyle captcha but that isn't in the stable release of Mediawiki yet --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 04:02, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
:I use [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:ConfirmAccount Confirm User Accounts]. I get a little spam (I just checked and there were three junk requests) but they doesn’t slow down the wiki or result in any vandalism. It has a “Spam” response which doesn’t send an email to the requester. The main downsides are that you have to respond to each request individually, and it does throw a couple of error messages, though nothing serious. (I’m currently running MediaWiki 1.40.1 and Confirm User Accounts 224079f.) It might not be the best available! -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 07:44, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
Twenty-five at once is getting back to the bad old days! [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:01, 1 August 2024 (UTC)<BR>
Forty-three so far today, almost all from the same source. I wonder what the "human not bot" filter does. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:25, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

It's getting to be a bit much, and for extra annoyance, when I'm logged in I can't see any but the most recent deletions. If I log out, I can see that the spammers I've just deleted still show, but I can't do anything with them. Fortunately, they don't seem to be active but they still show in Recent changes. Can AI-assisted bots now defeat any captcha? , [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:27, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

The Chicago insurance agent is getting really tiresome. It can do fifteen at once all day and night, apparently automated. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:13, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

:Any word on user account approval, [[User:Osiris|Osiris]]? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:37, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

The log in procedure seems to have changed and there's a pause in vandalism. Will it last? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:41, 14 November 2024 (UTC)...no, they're back. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:23, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

== Independent Wiki Federation? ==
I think we'd be a prime candidate for membership in the [https://indiewikifederation.org/ Independent Wiki Federation], which might be a nice way to attract some additional contributors and mods. They also have a very friendly Discord full of very knowledgeable folk who specialise in MediaWiki and might be able to help us solve our spam woes. What do we reckon? Doesn't cost us anything, and it would link us to a bigger community. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 07:29, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
:I don't see why not, but I suppose [[User:Osiris|Osiris]] would have to apply. (I wouldn't even know where to find the org-application channel.) [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:24, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
:: I’m happy to do the paperwork, as it were, but only if we have consensus here that we want to do it. In any case I’m on the Discord and I’ll ask for some advice about dealing with spam account creation. It’s really gotten out of hand. — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 21:30, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
:Indeed. (No opinion from [[User:Osiris|headquarters]].) [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:41, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

==More trolls==
Well, today must be the worst ever. Over a hundred.surely. (The counter doesn't even try to keep track.) [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:40, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
:The CAPTCHA isn’t doing anything to slow them down; I’ve finally got around to asking for suggestions from the IWF (as mentioned above; it got away from me.) I’ll report when I hear anything! -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:45, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

== New art process? ==
I’ve been keeping an eye out on Reddit and other social media for Discworld fan art to help provide pictures of various characters. I recently asked one if they’d like to join - and they did! Welcome [[User:HeiryProblems|HeiryProblems]]. They don’t have wiki experience so I’ve been helping them get started, but so far the art they’ve done is for characters who have existing art. Should we update the art? Add a gallery section for characters to showcase more than one bit of fan art? Not sure what the best step there is. (I’ve helped [[User:HeiryProblems|HeiryProblems]] with a gallery of works on their user page, so you can see some there.) -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:49, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

:I don't see any upgrades in illustrations there (too cartoonish}, Add a gallery section of illustrations maybe, or a fan art section? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:59, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

== Suggestions for stopping the SEO spambots ==
I asked at the IWF, and was recommended a few different MediaWiki extensions: [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:ConfirmEdit ConfirmEdit] (which we do have installed), [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:HoneyPot HoneyPot] (which we don't) and [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:QuestyCaptcha QuestyCaptcha] (now part of ComfirmEdit), which adds questions users have to answer when submitting an edit - something I think we have or had on this Wiki, for new users at least? One of the admins and founders of IWF specifically recommended AbuseFilter (which we do have installed) and supplied the list of keywords he uses which he says works very well to stop nearly all spam on his wikis. I see I have permission to add new filters to AbuseFilter, so I'm going to give this a try. The same person also recommended that as a last ditch option we could try deactivating open account creation completely for a week or so. The bots will find themselves unable to do their thing, and eventually take us off their lists of places to try. We don't get a lot of legit new users so this ought to be okay, and if anyone asks during that period we admins should be able to manually make them an account. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 23:42, 28 January 2025 (UTC)
:Oh, almost forgot - they also recommended the [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:UserMerge UserMerge] extension as a way to delete multiple users at once, basically by merging a bunch of spambot accounts into one, then deleting the one that's left. We already have this one installed, too, so worth a look? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 23:56, 28 January 2025 (UTC)
::Yes, we used Questy for a while and we had Merge for a while, which I enjoyed. I've thought before that we could handle manual approval of new users but I don't know how difficult it might be to set up. I've been wondering if any captcha can defeat AI-enhanced bots. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:27, 29 January 2025 (UTC)
:::CAPTCHA, no - but the new filter in AbuseFilter seems to be working, it's already caught and auto-blocked one spambot from the tail end of the burst we got around the time I added the rule. The real test will be the next big influx, but I feel optimistic that it'll catch and block those accounts while also preventing them from creating those pages. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 04:59, 29 January 2025 (UTC)

== Spambot update ==
Things are mostly looking good on this front!
* The new AbuseFilter rule is working, [[Special:AbuseLog|and only seems to be blocking spambots]]. So hopefully our spambot problem is solved!
* We still have a large number of spambot accounts that flew under our radar before this. They’re pretty easy to identify via the [[Special:ActiveUsers|list of active users]], though - they’re only in the list because the account was recently created, and they either have zero edits or just a user page. Worth looking for an extension that automatically deletes unused accounts after a period of time?
:: Update on this - there’s a maintenance script for this purpose: [[mw:Manual:RemoveUnusedAccounts.php|RemoveUnusedAccounts.php]]. Might be worth running, [[User:Osiris|Osiris]]? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 22:33, 6 February 2025 (UTC)
* The AbuseFilter has a block time of 3 days which is much better than my manual block time - I naively used 3 months or <strike>1 year</strike> indefinite! This has caused a problem in that some fan artists I’ve been encouraging to share their work here have been unable to create an account because their IP is blocked.
For now, I’m going to find and unblock the IPs which haven’t seen activity for a while; new spam accounts will be blocked by AbuseFilter. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 22:24, 6 February 2025 (UTC)
:Hallelujah! Most of them seem to have stopped trying, even. Only three in the last four days. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:16, 6 February 2025 (UTC)
::Yeah, once the first attempt is blocked you don’t get thirty more the same day! So we should see only small numbers when they do crop up. You’ll see some activity from today in the block log - that’s me going through and reducing the time for a bunch of old blocks I’d put in place, so they’ll expire soon (it was a bit quicker and easier to do that than manually unblock them). Hopefully that will help with new user signups which were being blocked. The rest ought to expire in the next few months, so hopefully as they disappear we’ll see those new user registration problems stop as well. Now we just need to start cleaning up all those bot user accounts... -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 00:29, 10 February 2025 (UTC)
:Now that you mention it, I used indefinite blocking (not knowing any better) back in the last major attack, before The Move, and it didn't seem to cause a problem. Another piece I don't understand; I'd have thought there were more IP addresses than that. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:50, 10 February 2025 (UTC)
::Well, there are a huge number of possible IP addresses, but owning a unique one with direct Internet access isn’t free. Regular Internet users get allocated an IP from a pool available to their ISP, and people running SEO spam might get their Internet access through the same companies. Long block times make this more likely - an IP address once used by bots has probably since been freed up and used by a legit service. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 03:54, 10 February 2025 (UTC)
:::I've been shamefully absent from this wiki for a bit, owing to a new daily morning show I've been doing and to a bit of depression since November. I'll try to get back to putzing around, but THANK YOU to all keeping the spam away. I'm not good at technical things, so I appreciate those who are.[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 23:02, 16 February 2025 (UTC)
:One got through today, though. Spam hidden in a link with only Korean? name. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:07, 18 February 2025 (UTC)
:Again today, spam only within a link. Every two weeks isn't bad, I suppose. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:33, 4 March 2025 (UTC)
::Thanks for the tip-off; I’ll have a look out for the next one and see if there are any obvious keywords I can add. We should think about what to do about the accounts that are created but don’t post anything, too. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 11:37, 12 March 2025 (UTC)
:Well, they're back. New style: a boilerplate user page followed by a long page of nonsense with no filter triggers. I guess the point is seo. Slowing the wiki quite a lot, too. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 17:23, 14 March 2025 (UTC)
::If you can capture the text from one before you delete it, that’d be very helpful! I’m sure we can find something in there that’s worth using in an update to the filter, especially combined with the absence of Discworld-appropriate keywords. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 07:58, 16 March 2025 (UTC)
:E-mailing rather than re-publishing it, but I doubt you can pick keywords. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:11, 17 March 2025 (UTC)
::Thanks for letting me know - thought you might have been hacked there for a second! It’s true that’s a difficult one, since it seems to be text stolen from an unrelated source. But some otherwise inoccuous words can go on the list when we consider the page also has to be missing the Discworld keywords in the other part of the filter. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 04:58, 17 March 2025 (UTC)
:Do you want another one? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:57, 18 March 2025 (UTC)
::If there's another representative one with a different theme, yeah! I think the changes I made have helped? Basically I'm adding keywords which while not indicative of spam links on their own, would be weird to see appear on a page on this wiki without some more Pratchett or Discworld related words as well. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 22:23, 23 March 2025 (UTC)
:Sure, but don't overdo it, it's working pretty well. I assume the restrictions only apply to a first post? E-mail away. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:49, 24 March 2025 (UTC)
::That's right - this filter only applies to a user's first edit, so a real person who probably makes a reasonable edit to an existing page before creating a user page, or creates a reasonable user page, will be fine. (The block also only lasts three days, and we can remove it if anyone gets caught by mistake.) I've added several more, but the formatting in that last one you sent seemed to be a failed template that I think was a rich source of potential options. It should stop a few more without going overboard! -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 10:47, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

== The Perils of Automatic Blocking ==
It says that blocking KendraGatlin also blocked me, but maybe administrators get away with it? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:28, 4 April 2025 (UTC)
:Hmmm...yes, this is the problem with blocking IP addresses, though I wouldn't have thought it'd be so prevalent! It's affected a few fan artists I've tried to recruit as well. But this is a good reason to keep the block times short! -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 14:58, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

==Another exception==
Hmm. User:JuliannHooks got by the filter although the page contained "my web-page". Probably because JuliannHooks is not a new user, having been blocked last year? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:31, 14 April 2025 (UTC)
Likewise, User:RicardoBiraban. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:36, 16 April 2025 (UTC)
:The filter focuses on first edits, so yeah - if they’d already made an edit and their account still existed... This is why we need to figure out the most efficient way to delete the bot accounts. The usual way is to merge them into a generic user account, but I haven’t figured out the best way to do that for large numbers yet. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 00:50, 19 April 2025 (UTC)
We used to have Merge, too. It was very convenient. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:58, 19 April 2025 (UTC)<BR>
I wonder how these people are getting through with banned phrases and no previous record. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 19:27, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Main Page

2025-06-10T16:25:58Z

Old Dickens: Reverted edit by Pallavi88 (talk) to last revision by Old Dickens

'''For discussion prior to The Long Drive (2012), see [[Talk:Main Page/Archive1]].'''

== Where to post other works referring to Terry Pratchett and Discworld? ==
Sorry if this isn't where such things are supposed to be discussed, but is there a place to post games which refer to Terry Pratchett? Something like [[Reading suggestions]] or [[Webcomic and Graphic Novel Suggestions]], but for games? I recently played one called [http://www.kramsdesign.com/games/annas-quest/ Anna's Quest], and not only do I think it would appeal to other readers, but it even has a "in memory of Terry Pratchett" in the credits! --[[User:Varriount|Varriount]] 01:21, 2 August 2015 (EST)
:No, this isn't the place...see [[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 6#Namespaces]] and [[Bibliography#Gaming]]. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 14:29, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

==Updating the Main Page without The Author==
Today's addition of "or about" was a useful idea. I was just about to ask what to do with that section and "Breaking news": trim the five-year-old stuff or archive as much as possible? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 17:11, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

== Main Page ==

I have changed the original category: WikiData, and replaced it with: Main Page. -- [[User:DCool1|DCool1]] ([[User talk:DCool1|talk]]) 15:55, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

==Archive?==
[[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] asks about an archive for the Main Page. We've always deleted the old to make room for the new, relying on the history, but he could do that instead. Any other opinions? (See second section above.) --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:12, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
:Hmmm...you make a good point about the history. I think the things I've been uncertain about are that we don't have an agreed definition of how recent "breaking news" should be, and that there are some news items (PTerry's death, the steamroller) that seem like they should stay on the page. But maybe it's time to move those important ones somewhere else? As for the timeframe, do we want to keep stuff from the last six months? Or maybe just the X number of most recent annoucements? A guideline like that would make deciding what to keep much easier. I do think the front page would benefit from a bit of pruning... And the same things go for the publications section. [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 13:29, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
"How long" probably depends on the significance: the death announcement should remain, the over-long section on 50 Years of Terry and much of the rest that's over a year old need to go somewhere. Where, though? Do you want to make an archive? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:07, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
:Maybe we don't need a news archive per se, but just to put the info that's of lasting interest on an appropriate page before deleting it. For example, I think there's room for a [[50 Years of Terry]] page that just lists all the publications and projects that are part of it, which would mean we could get rid of the long news item. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 11:02, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
::Okay, based on that principle, I've done a bit of a clean-up of the front page. I added a subsection for significant Pratchett events at the bottom of the news, for stuff that should stay on the front page, and then deleted anything else that was more than a year old. (I would advocate for changing "breaking news" to "recent news".) I also did a bit of a clean up on the list of publications, though there are some older ones that should probably stay there too, and some others to be added, since its a busy year. I moved some of the stuff I got rid of to appropriate other pages, most notably news of the delay of {{UDC}}. I'll have another go soon, but let me know what you think of this? I think the definition list format works really well for a list of dates like this. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 13:14, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
:::Looks fine; "recent news" makes more sense. Now if only the page counter worked. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 15:17, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

This page, now, wants an archive. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:10, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Esmerelda

2025-05-30T02:51:25Z

Old Dickens: Created page with "<div class="notice metadata" id="disambig">''This is a disambiguation page, a list of pages that otherwise might share the same title. If an article link referred you here, you might want to go back and fix it to point directly to the intended page.''</div> Esmerelda can refer to * Esmerelda "Granny" Weatherwax * Esmerelda Margaret Note Spelling of Lancre, daughter of Magrat Garlick Cate..."

<div class="notice metadata" id="disambig">''This is a disambiguation page, a list of pages that otherwise might share the same title. If an [[Special:Whatlinkshere/{{NAMESPACE}}:{{PAGENAME}}|article link]] referred you here, you might want to go back and fix it to point directly to the intended page.''</div>

Esmerelda can refer to

* Esmerelda [[Granny Weatherwax|"Granny" Weatherwax]]
* [[Esmerelda Margaret Note Spelling of Lancre]], daughter of Magrat Garlick

[[Category:Disambiguations]]

Phoenix

2025-05-27T04:43:51Z

Old Dickens: no spoilers

An allegorical bird as well as a real bird. The phoenix live in the [[Ramtops]], in [[Überwald]], and near [[Cori Celesti]]. The phoenix is one of the few [[Discworld (world)|Discworld]] animal species that have learned to live on magic. A phoenix is capable of charring things (wooden slats on windows, leather hoods on their heads...) without setting them on fire. Like all other birds, the phoenix reproduce by laying eggs. A male phoenix and a female phoenix are required prior to laying eggs. Note also the plural on the eggs. The phoenix use magic to produce high temperature that can incubate their eggs very fast. The phoenix hatchlings do not get to see their parents, as a result a phoenix chick takes the form of whatever other bird it sees. So, if a female phoenix left her eggs near a goose's nest, then the resultant phoenix chicks will look like geese. Down the ages, [[Falconry|falconers]] in [[Lancre]] have made volumes of notes on the phoenices that they had seen, and shapes ranged from goose-like to pigeon-like. The latest phoenix hatched in Lancre took the form of a [[Lancre Wowhawk]].

Like other bird males, male phoenix go in for big display; a male phoenix can produce a large area of magical fire around its body, in the shape of a giant bird. The magical fire is very bright, but only moderately warm. It is said that a phoenix does not tolerate evil, and its magical fire will burn an evil person horribly, whilst [[Granny Weatherwax|those who try to be good even against their better judgement]] and [[Mightily Oats|those who try to be good because of a vague feeling of divinely-ordained duty]] will remain whole. The magical fire left on a shed feather of a phoenix can remain lit for a long time and be moved onto a fingertip, into a saucer, and so on.

==Annotation==

There is a version of the {{wp|Phoenix_(mythology)|Phoenix}} on [[Roundworld]], a mythical sacred firebird which originated in the ancient mythologies mentioned in the Phoenician Mythology (Sanchuniathon) and the Egyptian and later the Greek Mythology. ''This'' phoenix is a mythical bird with a colorful plumage and a tail of gold and scarlet (or purple, blue, and green according to some legends). It has a 500 to 1,000 year life-cycle, near the end of which it builds itself a nest of twigs that then ignites; both nest and bird burn fiercely and are reduced to ashes, from which a new, young phoenix or phoenix egg arises, reborn anew to live again. The new phoenix is destined to live as long as its old self. In some stories, the new phoenix embalms the ashes of its old self in an egg made of myrrh and deposits it in the Egyptian city of Heliopolis (sun city in Greek). It is said that the bird's tears contain healing abilities of pureness, and their cry is that of a beautiful song.

[[Category:Discworld Flora & Fauna]]

Quirm Royal Post Office

2025-05-27T04:33:07Z

Old Dickens: ...more likely

During the glory days of the [[Ankh-Morpork Post Office|Royal Ankh-Morpork Post Office]], a branch was also based in the city state of [[Quirm]].

Due to a miscommunication in the twilight years of the Ankh-Morpork monarchy, the king issuing an order with his mouth full, Quirm's branch of the Royal Post Office once employed trained ostriches as delivery staff. It is unlikely that this practice has resumed as part of the Post's current revival.

The Post Office is situated on Le [[Place de Malle]].

[[Category: Streets and Landmarks of Quirm]]

Talk:Myria LeJean

2025-05-15T02:44:18Z

Old Dickens:

I never thought of, or heard anybody else connect {{wp|Death_by_Chocolate|Death by Chocolate}} before.
I did say before: "what a wonderful thing is a wiki".
--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 03:58, 17 September 2011 (CEST)

and anonymous, too, so the person responsible cannot be identified...--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 21:41, 17 September 2011 (CEST)
:um...according to the history, it was you. I'm also startled at how long that's been there. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 22:17, 17 September 2011 (CEST)

bloody hell, it was, too... I hought a turn of phrase or two were pretty much the sort of things I'd say, but I put it down to somebody called 208.108.138.130... I really have no memory of adding this, but it was years ago and it has been slightly rewritten since...--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 02:33, 18 September 2011 (CEST)
:yea, and you're not even as old as I am. It gets worse. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 03:46, 18 September 2011 (CEST)

== Title ==

Should it be Myria LeJean or Unity LeJean? Her final name was Unity but for most of the book her name was Myria. --Confusion 21:11, 26 November 2011 (CET)

: Now *that's* an interesting question (and a 14 year old one to boot). Looks like the MR pages are under the original names that we see for the majority of the book: Tonker, Lofty, etc. She's Myria until, well, until she's not, and she's way more Myria than Unity to the reader. "Myria" is how I imagine readers of this wiki would expect to see her listed, with Unity as a redirect (if I knew how those work). I'm uncomfortable deadnaming Unity, but Myria is the way I think we should list her in this sorta encyclopedia. Other thoughts?[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 02:13, 15 May 2025 (UTC)
::Right alongside you, again; I'm all for tightening. There are other quite elaborate plot summaries, mind you. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:44, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

Myria LeJean

2025-05-14T03:32:21Z

Old Dickens: missing word?

{{Character Data
|title= Myria LeJean
|photo=Blank.jpg|
|name= Myria LeJean
|age= As old as time
|race= [[Auditors of Reality|Auditor]], though she becomes more and more human

|occupation= Auditor
|appearance=

|residence=

|death= By [[Chocolate]]
|parents=
|relatives=
|children=
|marital status=

|books= {{TOT}}
|cameos=
}}

An [[Auditors of Reality|Auditor]] embodied in a human, well, body. When the Auditors attempted to re-create the human body, they found that it would just lie there, decomposing, unless one of them entered the body and steered it around.

Myria's physical form is based on the famous [[Leonard of Quirm]] portrait of ''Woman Holding Ferret'', but with all the organic imperfections (such as asymmetry) removed. The result is a rather colourless copy of a beautiful woman.

She employed [[Time|Time's]] son, [[Jeremy Clockson]], to build the perfect clock, in order to stop time. She went insane, as she further experimented with the experience of being human (watching the opera, tasting food, etc...), and attempted surreptitiously to stop the clock from being completed.

Once time was stopped, she aided in Jeremy's escape, and also helped [[Susan Sto Helit|Susan]] and [[Lobsang Ludd|Lobsang]] in fighting the Auditors, who swarmed Discworld in corporeal form once time stopped.

Her name defines an important aspect of the Auditors: Myria stands for "myriad", a number once meaning "ten thousand" in Greek, but now means "very many"; LeJean is a pun for "legion", also meaning many, and can be connected to the demons exorcised by Jesus. The Auditors believed that the name of an object or a person ought to describe what it or he/she really is, and they believed that there is safety in numbers; an individual identity means death.

It was Myria who found out that [[chocolate#chocolate as weapon|chocolate]] could kill Auditors. She was renamed "Unity" by Susan (who nonetheless still thought she was more insane than a loft full of cuckoos). She killed herself by jumping into a huge vat of pure chocolate, and her swan dive was witnessed by [[Kaos]] and [[Death]], one of the [[Four Horsemen]] of the [[Apocralypse]].

Myria LeJean is embodied in the form of a classically beautiful woman to engage Jeremy to make a time-stopping clock. Being in a human form, she comes under the effect of human senses and organs, and starts haltingly to see the world from that point of view.

Smitten by the combination of beauty and a fascinating knowledge of the possibility of clocks, Jeremy falls in love with her. Ambushed by the physicality of her own body, she is attracted to him, and in her inexperience, it is in an equally inarticulate way. She starts staying in human form all the time, going to art galleries, and even tastes food. She discovers poetry. She allows a cat to move into the place where she goes, and starts to paint. More and more wrapped in flesh, she begins to lie to herself, and to the monitoring Auditors. Even Igor begins to suspect that she is sabotaging the clock on her visits, in which he is correct. She wants more time.

When other Auditors suspect something, they become embodied, and accompany on her visit to Jeremy to ensure the clock starts that very day. She can see some of the more primitive process of ego arising in them almost immediately, emerging as argument, anger. An Auditor has no preparation for the intensities of the human form. “It’s in the darkness where your eye’s can’t see,” she says. “The universe becomes two halves, and you live in the half behind the eyes. Once you have a body, you have a ‘me’. I have seen galaxies die. I have watched atoms dance. But until I had the dark behind the eyes, I did not know the death from the dance.”

Myria is caught trying to destroy the clock by the Auditors, and a fight ensues, which is not described. She goes on the run with Jeremy, whom she may have carried, because he got hit, and could barely walk. She hides in the attic of the Art Museum, barricaded behind paradoxical commands to confuse her still super-disciplined colleagues. She discovers how to kill them with chocolate. Lobasang and Susan find her there. She and Lu Tze distract the Auditors while Susan and Lobsang set off to destroy the clock. She is captured, saved by Lu Tze, and when the clock is destroyed, ends up with him 60,000 years away eyeball to eyeball with a mammoth.

Left with Susan, once time begins to flow again, she explains what will happen to the remaining Auditors when they succumb to sleep. “The first time it happened to me I found such horror that I cannot express it... For an intellect a billion years old, in a body which is an ape on the back of a rat that grew out of a lizard. Can you imagine what comes out of the dark places, uncontrolled. They will die in their dreams.”
There is a pool of visceral anger in Susan, which comes out against Auditors, but she has to admit that Unity raises the question of where humanity begins and ends, and almost feels sorry for Auditors in general.

Still not having acquired the social grace of duplicity, Unity asks the tooth-gritted Susan directly if she had romantic ideas about Lobsang. She said she herself had had strange feelings for his self that was the clockmaker i.e. Jeremy, who has now disappeared into Lobsang. She had wanted to help him, because he seemed to be closed in and sad.

Then she says she has a rather human ambition: she wishes to die. She has betrayed her own kind. She can exist only by being insane. There is nowhere where she will ever be able to feel at home, and staying would be agony. She goes to her death by chocolate in the presence of Death and Chaos.

It would all have ended on rather a tragic note, except that after she plunged into the vat of chocolate, she is astonished to find herself talking to Death again. "But... I died," she said. "Yes," said Death. "This is the next part." She had become human enough to find herself on the journey through the desert.

==Annotation==

''Death by Chocolate'' is a rather twee name (at least, it's witty the ''first'' time you come across it) for a very rich, glutinous and intense chocolate sponge cake, saturated in chocolate liquor, filled with chocolate icing and topped with - guess what? rich chocolate sauce and decorated with chocolate shavings. As well as describing the mode of Myria's death, it has also been sent up in {{M}}, where * [[Ysabell]]'s favourite dessert is named as ''Genocide by Chocolate''.

[[Category:Discworld characters|LeJean, Myria]]
[[Category:Supporting characters|LeJean, Myria]]
[[Category:Supernatural entities]]
[[de:Myria LeJean]]

Tonker Halter

2025-05-12T03:52:51Z

Old Dickens: clean infobox

{{Character Data
|title= Magda "Tonker" Halter
|photo=Blank.jpg|
|name= Magda Halter
|age= Late teens or early 20s
|race= human

|occupation= soldier, former inmate of the [[Girls' Working School]]
|appearance= big with short red hair

|residence= [[Borogravia]]

|death=
|parents=
|relatives=
|children=
|marital status= in a relationship with [[Lofty Tewt]]

|books= {{MR}}
|cameos=
}}
"Tonker" Halter is one of the recruits from [[Monstrous Regiment]] who joined up with [[Polly Perks]]. Her real name is Magda.

"Tonker" is described as being big with red hair, which she wears cut very short. She is the last one Polly can identify as a girl and only after a tip from [[Maladict]].

Little is known of her life story. She came from the [[Girls' Working School]] in [[Munz]], where the mistreatment hardened her until she became a cynic with a barely-controlled temper. Polly's first impression is one of "nervousness that didn't quite conceal some bubbling anger". Tonker describes herself as having "no middle gears". While she is relatively talkative where [[Lofty Tewt]] and [[Wazzer Goom]] are concerned, she hardly gives any information about her own life, neither at the school nor before. She and Lofty are always found close together, leading Polly to believe that Lofty is "his" girl. Tonker also seems to be the only one able to get some sense out of her Lofty.

She and Lofty escaped from the School when a window in the basement was left unlocked, but Tonker has promised Lofty to go back in summer, when the building will burn better. Despite their relationship, which seems to be rather a dependency, especially on Lofty's side, the latter can frighten even Tonker when she gets her hand on a match...

After the treaty, she and Lofty disappeared, but shortly afterwards the Working School burned down and a bank was robbed by two slim hooded figures.

==Character Annotation==

It is possible that Tonker's real name, Magda, is a reference to the {{wp|Magdalene Asylum|Magdalene Laundries}}, which were at least as bleak as the Girls' Working School.

"Tonker" is a, er, dwarven word used in connection with [[Lancre|Lancre's]] decidedly masculine [[The Long Man|Long Man]] earthworks. In her search for an alias that sounded really manly, Magda may have overcompensated.

[[Category:Discworld characters|Halter,Tonker]]
[[Category:Human characters|Halter,Tonker]]

User talk:Guybrush

2025-04-27T03:27:23Z

Old Dickens:

User talk:Guybrush

2025-04-27T02:04:14Z

Old Dickens: English as she is spoke

User talk:Guybrush

2025-04-26T05:03:33Z

Old Dickens:

Talk:Abrim

2025-04-25T03:05:36Z

Old Dickens: Huh?

Is this really a stub? --Confusion 01:56, 18 January 2012 (CET)

==ESL==
I wish I understood what the central sentence in the last paragraph was trying to say so I might fix it, but I'm stumped. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:05, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum

2025-04-19T00:58:21Z

Old Dickens: /* Another exception */

Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum

2025-04-16T16:36:40Z

Old Dickens: /* Another exception */

Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum

2025-04-14T21:32:11Z

Old Dickens: returning spammer