Talk:Havelock Vetinari

Assassin's Guild target?

Does the assassin's guild have a fee on his head? I thought he (and Sam Vimes) were the only two people the guild gave up on...--Sanity 23:06, 13 Sep 2005 (CEST)

I'm pretty sure that I read in one of the books that Vetinari had a fee on his head but noone had yet dared (and succeeded) to collect it. Don't remember in which book it could have been tough. Probably one of the guards novels. It would be nice if we could verify this though. Jeltz 23:13, 13 Sep 2005 (CEST)

Men At Arms:

'Everyone knows the Assassins have set his fee at a million dollars,'
said Lady Selachii.'That's how much it would cost to have him killed.'
'One can't help feeling,' said Lord Rust,
'that it would cost a lot more than that to make sure he stayed dead.'

--Death 10:03, 14 Sep 2005 (CEST)

I give you Nightwatch, UK hardback p. 8 from the top:

'You're a bit young to be sent on this contract, aren't you?'
 said Vimes.
 'Not a contract, sir,' said Jocasta, still paddling.
 'Come now, Miss Wiggs. The price on my head is at least---'
 'The Guild Council put it in abeyance, sir,' said the dogged
 swimmer. 'You're off the register. They're not accepting
 contracts on you at present.'

On the next page, when Sam contemplates this:

'Off the register, eg? The only person not on it any more,
 it was rumoured, was Lord Vetinari, the Patrician. The Assassins
 understood the political game in the city better than anyone,
 and if they took you off the register it was because they felt your
 departure would not only spoil the game but also smash the
 board...'

I'm writing a paper on Havelock Vetinari for my English Composition II class and I need some good reliable sources, especially Terry Pratchett interviews that may bring up his name or books he is featured in prominently. I promise faithfully to share all my information, but I need someone to point me in a good direction!

Name

I read somewhere about Vetinari's name being a satire in itself but I can't remember what of or where i read it - any ideas? 81.77.78.217 21:25, 13 February 2006 (CET)

From http://www.lspace.org/books/apf/sourcery.html: " A sideways pun (via 'veterinary') on the name of the famous de Medici family, who were the enlightened rulers of Renaissance Florence." --10.0.0.1 12:57, 14 February 2006 (CET)

Yes, where a vetinarian is an animal doctor and medicin is the french (and possibly other Romance languages) for 'doctor'--Hapenny 23:45, 24 January 2008 (CET)

in book 37 a drunken footballer directly calls him vetinary

One quick question: I think there was an English medieval king called "Havelock" as well, as far as i remember it seems as if he was regarded as a kind of ideal leader...just an idea though

See Havelok. No obvious connection, though, except as successful overthrower of an evil ruler. --Old Dickens 15:24, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

It was also used as a pun during the Fifth Elephant: when Vimes mentioned Vetinari to the von Uberwalds (werewolves) (putting a little extra stress on the first syllable) the response included a growl. (He got a similar response at the mention of baths - it all rather put's me in mind of Blackadder III dealing with the actors through the use of the word 'Macbeth'). I've also commented on the name 'Havelock' lower down this page (under Vetinari In Concert), sorry - it fitted in with my mention of his Holmesian like character with relation to choice of instruments. --GallifreyanWitch (talk) 16:18, 21 November 2013 (GMT)

Age quibble

Vetinari needs to be well over 50. He's older than Sam, who has to be over 50 by now. (Calculate from Night Watch.) Old Dickens 10:15 EST 17 Aug 2006.

I gathered from Nightwatch that he's slightly older than Sam (how old are Assasin's Guild students?). Sam goes back 30 years in time and sees himself as a 16 or 18yo (can't remember exactly). That would make him nearing 50 and Vetinari a few years older than that. I remember TP saying that Vimes and Vetinari are roughly the same age, too.

BTW, we probably need to replace age with year of birth so it doesn't need to change with each book, and a timeline (just mailed the LSpace people who maintain the DW Timeline whether it's okay to put in on the wiki). --Sanity 16:48, 17 August 2006 (CEST)

Timeline discussion moved here.

In Night Watch, Vetinari is still a pupil at the Assassins' Guild school. We know from context (Pyramids) that the AG school is set up along the lines of a British public school. In common with other British higher schools, the age-range of pupils would be eleven - eighteen. Downey and his louche chums would be the equivalent of sixth-formers: ie, seventeen-eighteen. Vetinari, from context, can be assumed to be of the same age or slightly younger? While mention is made of a "post-graduate" course in the Assassins' Guild - implying that it offers continuing learning at the equivalent of university level (the Unseen University can hardly be expected to offer degrees in assassination...) the bulk of the Guild's education appears to be focused on young people of accepted school-age, ie 11-18 years old. So you could assume the young Vetinari is, at this time, no lower than the fifth form (15-16) but most probably in the Lower Sixth (16-17)?

In The Truth, we are told he graduated in 1969. This places the events of Night Watch as being no later than 1999/1969, and suggests a birthdate of c.1951 Gothmog Dave 21:54, 29 February 2008 (CET)

In the book The Fifth Elephant, Lady Margolotta (a vampire) says that Vetinari "should be quite old by now". Sam Vimes asks her if she taught Vetinari everything he knows, and she laughs and insinuates that, in fact, he had taught her in her younger days. This indicates to me the possibility that Vetinari's age is far greater than what some of you may be thinking. And although it hasn't been explicitly stated in any of Terry Pratchett's works as far as I know, it also opens up the possibility that Vetinari is a vampire, which would explain how he could look relatively young while in fact being quite old.

Assuming that Vetinari is seventeen during Night Watch, it's impossible (unless he ages in a very strange way) that he could be the Patrician during the events of The Colour of Magic or Mort. Since in Thief of Time Susan is almost certainly in her early- to mid-twenties, I'm assuming that by Night Watch (in the present) she's at least 25. This means that Night Watch takes place around 27 years after Mort, and three years after Vetinari 'killed' Winder, meaning he couldn't possibly be celebrating his 10th anniversary as Patrician, even if he had managed to become Patrician at such a young age. Does anyone else agree? Rachel95

I've created a potential Time Line for Vetinari on my talk/discussion page, based on the assumption he's 17 or 18 in Nights Watch (though I expect it could also be modified to assume he's younger/older at that time) and on the info I can find on the page related to events in specific years (I would provide the link but formatting could be problematic as I'm writing from a tablet). I must admit I think the Time Line I've come up with covers most things and fits in quite well. I've also included current affairs (other rulers, wars, development of technology) and the little info on Wuffles on the timeline to provide context.

Here are some of my assumptions/suggestions based on the Time Line I've made:

It would, if it's accurate, suggest he's around 24/25 at the time of The Colour of Magic and The Light Fantastic - so it would technically be possible for him to be Patrician at that time.

As of THUD! Vetinari has been patrician for at least 17 years (based on Sorcery), possibly 27 Years (if he was patrician during the colour of magic).

There is roughly a 10 year gap between Colour of Magic and Sorcery, presenting the potential he lost weight and showed his true colours as patrician during that time - see point below about overweight Vetinari (even if it took 10 years if he really lost weight during that time I'd love to know what his diet/fitness plan was to achieve such a change).

There could be a gap between 7 and 17 years between Vetinari's final year/s as a student in the guild and his being patrician - during which time the Grand Sneer and his assistance to Lord Snapcase can be assumed to have taken place.

If he is the patrician during the colour of magic it suggests he made use of the post-graduate program during his time as patrician (must admit I find it curious he has no formal qualification in languages despite the fact they'd probably be useful in his current profession). Personally I think the reference in The Truth to graduation in 1969 refers to his latest graduation - i.e. post-graduate course. It messes the dates up quite a bit and doesn't fit in with the suggested date for Night Watch if that were his original graduation aged under 20 otherwise, and probably reduces his apparent age by about 10 years or so I think, which would not fit in with the idea of him being older than he seems or aged in his 50s during the latest books. Potential year of birth - 1939/1940 Possible ages during sorcery - 34/35 Possible age during Guards! Guards! - 45/46 Other key books on virtually a yearly basis after that. Possible age during The Truth - 50/51 Possible age during Goind Postal and THUD! - 51/52 Dates for following books unknown, but presumably also on a yearly basis suggesting he's arounf 54/55 as of Snuff

And, Rachel95, I wouldn't put it past Vetinari to age in an odd manner, however I'd of also thought that using Susan's age as a guide might not set things in stone - she is Death's Granddaughter afterall, so it might be that she's the one who ages in an odd way (I've included her potential date of birth based on the lspace wiki time line on the Time Line on my talk page.). I personally don't think he's a Vampire - even though he exhibits similar traits. But I do think he's not simply human. There is a presedence for a human aging oddly: Rincewind - who's life timer is described as looking as if it were created by a glassblower with hiccups - What if the same glassblower was a frequent sufferer of hiccups and made other unusual hourglasses (which just so happen to be for influential people in relation to events on the disc? (Oh dear - Now my mind is racing with potential stories.) --Verity (talk) 22:08, 1 December 2013 (GMT)

Coat of arms

After the success of my Ankh-Morpork coat of arms I thought I'd try my hand at a few more. Vetinari's was the obvious choice because it's more or less blank although I added a bit of a flourish to the motto to liven it up a bit. If you go back and look at when I first added Vetinari's coat of arms you'll see it looked dreadful but I think I've found a way that works, I've made it slightly larger and floated it above the text. I'd appreciate any thoughts or suggestions (or criticisms) you may have.--Teletran 00:38, 26 February 2007 (CET)

I can't read the motto.--Old Dickens 02:30, 26 February 2007 (CET)

click on it and it'll get bigger--Teletran 03:53, 26 February 2007 (CET)

Vetinari's Intelligence Files

Do the Patrician's intelligence service files contain at least a partial catalogue of books held by the Library?

--(Originally posted by AgProv to The Summoning of Dragons on 22:10, 19 May 2007 moved here by Fhh98 06:31, 28 February 2008 (CET))

The Patrician's intelligence service files could hardly contain more than a partial list. The UU Library, of course, contains all the books ever written and all the books that will or may ever be written.

--Old Dickens 01:08, 28 February 2008 (CET) (Originally posted to Talk:The Summoning of Dragons moved here by Fhh98 06:31, 28 February 2008 (CET))

It is possible that the UU library may have a list of the books that will never be written. 173.206.76.164 06:39, 23 March 2011 (CET)

Just logic, really: how does a non-wizard such as Lupine Wonse stumble accross the idea, in the first place, that the UU library contains a book which offers the key to taking over the city? (And to know its location on the shelf well enough to direct a hired thief there). Without Wonse's awareness that such a book exists, there'd be no later events to relate in Guards! Guards! - the Summoning would still be gently mouldering unheeded on a shelf somewhere, with its carbonised last few pages flaking into decrepitude. Wonse could ask a Wizard, but then he's openly declared an interest in such a book - leading no doubt to an intelligence report on him ending up on the Patrician's desk. The simplest concept that answered this question - how did he know the book existed in the first place? - is to posit that, as Vetinari's secretary, Wonse had unlimited access to the intelligence files in the Palace in the course of his duties. Nobody would notice, or think to ask, what he was looking up, as it was his job to maintain those archives. And if the Files included partial catalogues of books held in the Guild libraries, including that of UU...--AgProv 16:38, 3 March 2008 (CET)

de Malachite's adventure might well fall into the category of things the Patrician didn't want to see happen again and had notes about. On the other hand Wonse was a clever sod in his own right and might have come across it anywhere. Certainly I would expect the university to give the Palace the courtesy of free access to the library, and it wouldn't seem odd for clerks to be doing research there. This is pretty much why I was astonished when you pointed out that I was wrong in assuming Wonse stole the book himself: that was so much more likely. --Old Dickens 23:57, 3 March 2008 (CET)

Brother Fingers stole the book. Fhh98 03:46, 4 March 2008 (CET)

We know. Agprov's trying to work out how Wonse knew where to look. I say he was a clerk and finding out was what he did. --Old Dickens 23:42, 4 March 2008 (CET)

If the Library contains every book that's ever existed, its going to be hard for any non-magician to find any book. No details have been given on the Library's filing system, but it's bound to be complicated. 92.7.160.39 15:27, 24 February 2011 (CET)

It is. Blit. (ref Unseen Academicals)--AgProv 09:50, 23 March 2011 (CET)

Stealth Exam

When Vetinari returns (camouflaged) from taking out the assassin intending to kill Keel, Lady Roberta remarks "I understand, Havelock, that you scored zero in your examination for stealthy movement." The "correction" mentions only the "missed" classes, which apparently didn't bar him from the exam. --Old Dickens 14:08, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

TV Casting

Remember, in Sky's adaptation of The Colour Of Magic, Vetinari is played by Jeremy Irons. I don't know where in this article this should be mentioned, but it's noteworthy. JaffaCakeLover 16:07, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't know that most of us accept that he was Patrician at the time of The Colour of Magic, although Irons certainly plays him that way, not like the fat hedonist from the book. --Old Dickens 00:25, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Roundworld equivalent

OK I know a wiki isn't the right place to post current-event-blog-satire but this picture nails the Roundworld-Vetinari to an accuracy of 225%

[Vlad Putin pic]

Iron Hippo 22:18, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Vetinari In Concert

The Assassins' Guild School is known to require proficiency in some musical instrument, and V. is known to have an ear that prefers his own reading of the score to any imperfect performance of it. I wonder what his instrument was. The violin, like Sherlock Holmes, or the oboe, perhaps, because it's difficult? Maybe an even more unusual Agatean instrument, or the Klatchian asp-pipe? --Old Dickens 00:25, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I would say the violin would be the most obvious choice, which probably means it's automatically excluded. Maybe something unexpected like a harp, or even bagpipes? Though given V. seems to be proficient in almost everything he can probably play whatever instrument he picks up. --Megahurts 09:05, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I realise this doesn't mean he actually plays it, but in Going Postal Moist says he has 'pianist's fingers'. --Rachel95 21:32, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

I would have thought the violin a good, if predictable choice (OK, I must admit I see Vetinari as a very Holmesian character considering his build, skills, mind and abilities - if anything he seems a cross between Sherlock and Mycroft and if you want to go into sort of conspiracy-theorizing one might say even the name hints at this link: both 'Have'(in Havelock) and 'My' (in Mycroft) being terms of ownership, while 'lock' being in both 'Sherlock' and 'Havelock' - though perhaps that's just the thoughts of a mind that notices odd, seemingly deliberate coincidences. I remember reading somewhere that a Sherlock like detective probably wouldn't work that well in Ankh-Morpork, but a Sherlock like character would surely still be a possibility).

Anyway - back on topic, on the main Wikipedia page for Vetinari it says

'Vetinari also enjoys reading written music rather than listening to it performed, because the idea of it being performed by people, with all the sweat and saliva involved, strikes him as distasteful.'

Perhaps the thought of 'sweat and saliva' would be somewhat off putting with some instruments - especially wind instruments - though the violin would seem quite inoffensive in these respects as far as I can see.

It's also worth remembering he's a Doctor of Music and, let's face it, a polymath. I expect he'd be proficient in a variety of instruments, and still probably be able to play new instruments quite easily through transferable skills (like his juggling in Klatch during Jingo). I must admit I'm biased as I play the violin (though not well), however the skills/knowledge involved in it have greatly helped me in learning the plucked psaltery and tabor pipe, hence the line of thinking above.

This is, of course, assuming he actually plays music. He may have the skills and played in the past but who knows now? Certainly his view of music means he might just play it with his mind (see Soul Music - or this useful webpage

GallifreyanWitch (talk) 14:45, 21 November 2013 (GMT)

Interesting ideas. I gave one of my Assassins, in fanfic, the tuba, just for the sheer incongruity of it... (there was another more intricate joke involved, but you'd have to read the fic...) So what would Vetinari play? Well, he'd be cunning. In the Assassins' School Orchestra, he might be the piccolo player: he could just slip it into his inside pocket, bid the rest of the orchestra goodnight, and be in bed a long time before the timpanist had dismantled and packed his drums. He might be the man who quietly points out that the Uberwaldean music teacher meant no insult, as few people outside Überwald would know the word " das Faggot" means "bassoon". (weird but true). I suppose he might play the Extremely Muted Trumpet as an extention of his skills in stealth and concealment, arguing that a musical instrument making any sort of sound would betray his position... or else, given the social disruption caued by Music With rocks In, somewhere in the lowest dungeons of the palace, in a sound-proofed triple-locked room, there is The Guitar and a righteous heap of Marshall Stacks, where Vetinari goes to chill and blast out a few riffs. After all, the guitar is dangerous in other hands...AgProv (talk) 22:52, 21 November 2013 (GMT)

"Doctor of Music"? --Old Dickens (talk) 23:59, 21 November 2013 (GMT)

Love the ideas for different instruments. The concept of subtlety does seem very in keeping but can't help but grin at the thought of The Guitar.

Re: Doctor of Music, to quote the page for the Assassins Guild:

Lord Havelock Vetinari Holding the Title 'Provost of Assassins' and the following degrees: DMAP [Doctor of Medicine & Applied Pathology], DM [Doctor of Music], DGS [Doctor of God Studies], MA [Master Assassins], MPE [Master of Political Expediency], MASc [Master of Alchemical Science], MIDD [Member of the Institute of Dance & Deportment], BScI [Bachelor of the Science of Inhumation] & DiPE [Diploma in Physical Education]

--Verity (talk) 23:53, 26 November 2013 (GMT)

Glorious Revolution

Any ideas on re-wording this to be bit better? I understood young Samuel Vimes was present, but the older self had gone back. As well, the Patrician fought in the event on the side of the Watchmen, though at a period Vimes was not present. --82.130.29.57 00:38, 24 February 2011 (CET)

Past Havelock knows Vimes is Vimes...

Having recently heard the audio book version of Night Watch, something stuck out to me about halfway through. When Vimes (posing as Keel) goes to visit Vetinari's aunt, it is revealed once Vimes/Keel leaves that Havelock knows he is called Vimes. I don't understand where he came by this information or if this is a typo or simply needs to be chalked up to Vetinari being omniscient, even in the past. Thoughts?

In the book (Corgi PB, p.256), V. refers to him as Keel. A little brain-cramp in the audiobook script, maybe? --Old Dickens (talk) 22:13, 8 April 2013 (GMT)

Ah, must be, must be. Thanks for the info.

An Explanation for Overweight Vetinari

This was just my two cents that I didn't know where-else I could post, but seeing as there were two explanations given to the massive discrepancy in weight and nature between Lord Vetinari between the initial Discworld books and subsequent tales;

When beginning his career as Patrician, Lord Vetinari perhaps felt it appropriate to maintain the image of 'here comes the old boss, same as the new boss' as in appearing somewhat plump, cold and foreboding, without weakness yet exuberant and overindulging with a penchant for candied jellyfish (a vice that could be taken advantage of come need to dispose of him).

The moment the masses perceived him to be just like the former patricians as a whole (a promising start only to lead to a spectacularly terrible finish) he could then lose the weight and vices, whipping the rug out from under the populace with such speed and skill, the majority (poor) didn't notice the change (or if they did, they didn't care), and the minority (wealthy) were in no position to point it out. --IronDino (talk) 17:16, 17 October 2013 (GMT)